PC still playing Amiga catchup

[warpdesign]

The Amiga interface (Workbench) is very logical

I wouldn't say that...
Just give an Amiga, a Windows machine, a Mac to people who never ever touched a computer and we'll see which one is the more logical, or... intuitive...

[warpdesign]

Ok, so what's the point here ? 68k family being backward compatible ?

It seems to me that software written for 68040+ won't run correctly without 68040 library.

So maybe in theory it is. But in reality you cannot rely on that it seems... Why do we need 30 pages to argue on that ?

[Hammer]

I did in post #275 (way back).  I stated some since then, but even those in post #275 haven't been addressed.  Part of the gaming interface is not just joystick speed but even the gaming elements are standard on amiga like sprites, collision detection, priority settings, blitter, etc.  Sure you can find some cards that may have a few of these but mostly it's done in software.  So amiga would win there as well when it you time how long it takes to find collision detection of various elements, move sprites around, etc.

A CUDA GPU can resolve collisions i.e. as PhysX (Physics) CUDA accelerator.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fQMbFQVLhMc&feature=channel

One should not compared a modern GPU to Amiga's IGP.

>Um... The work I do, music production, simply can't be done on older machines, they are just too slow and have no support for the high definition audio interfaces that I use.

For many things, Amiga audio is sufficient for things.  I know they have a method of doing 14-bit sound by merging amiga's audio channels which is more than enough for me.

>What, a few years ago, used to require several rooms of equipment and a large mixing console, can now be done on a £2000 MacBook Pro, a 24bit firewire multichannel audio interface and Logic Studio (plus and other software of your choice)...

You may have that-- but is that a standard.  If not, you can buy an audio board for Amiga as well.

Most Intel "SantaRosa" class laptops includes HDA class sound chip. My ASUS "SantaRosa" class laptop is similar to MacBook Pro of the same era.

[Hammer]

I did in post #275 (way back).  I stated some since then, but even those in post #275 haven't been addressed.  Part of the gaming interface is not just joystick speed but even the gaming elements are standard on amiga like sprites, collision detection, priority settings, blitter, etc.  Sure you can find some cards that may have a few of these but mostly it's done in software.  So amiga would win there as well when it you time how long it takes to find collision detection of various elements, move sprites around, etc.

>Um... The work I do, music production, simply can't be done on older machines, they are just too slow and have no support for the high definition audio interfaces that I use.

For many things, Amiga audio is sufficient for things.  I know they have a method of doing 14-bit sound by merging amiga's audio channels which is more than enough for me.

>What, a few years ago, used to require several rooms of equipment and a large mixing console, can now be done on a £2000 MacBook Pro, a 24bit firewire multichannel audio interface and Logic Studio (plus and other software of your choice)...

You may have that-- but is that a standard.  If not, you can buy an audio board for Amiga as well.

Most Intel "SantaRosa" laptops includes HDA class sound chip.

[Karlos]

You never understood my point.  If I take an OCS machine with 68000 and run the program which works fine and now switch to an accelerator 68020/68030/68040/etc., the program should work fine (barring some rare exception).

No, you claimed the M68K was hardware backwards compatible whilst lambasting x64 for not supporting 16-bit directly in hardware. We merely demonstrated that the M68K isn't as directly backwards compatible as you claim.

If you accept that some form of missing or privileged instruction handling is necessary for higher 68K processors to run old 68000 code, then you can't slate x64 for needing the same.

Any exception is an exception. The SR should never have been accessible to user model and Motorola acknowledged this mistake.

You keep throwing in FPU/MMU into the picture to confuse things and thus your so-called experiment is a failure.

Yes, you are confused by it. But that doesn't change the argument that M68K does not retain direct backwards compatibility in hardware at each generation. And, FYI, I can get the same class of unimplemented instruction exception on 68060 just by running perfectly good 68020 code. No FPU/MMU required, just long multiplication.

[the_leander]

The laptop is standard, albeit top of the range CPU. The laptop comes as standard with a 24bit 48Khz audio interface! Something that you can't get for the Amiga at all (which even with expensive hardware never got beyond 16bit @44100Hz.

The is no FireWire for amiga, thus no good audio interfaces

Asus F5R comes with a Realtec chip that is also capable of 24bit 48khz (there is another option for 24bit 96khz but I've never tried it). The F5R can be had for less then £400. So yes, audio wise, Bloodline's mac is standard.

Btw stefcep2, I have to say I really don't recognise the stutter you're talking about.

[stefcep2]

Btw stefcep2, I have to say I really don't recognise the stutter you're talking about.

The stutter is there on my machine, but I'm certain if i could just get a video card that had 512 MB video ram, or a quadcore CPU or a SSD it would disappear..

Wasn't there a couple of DJ's in the UK that got a top 10 dance hit using two copies of Protracker running on an A500 ans an A1200 plus TV's?  Ultimately having all the technology in the world isn't gonna make your music magically better if you don't have the talent.  People have been listening to and creating fantastic recorded music for a lot longer than firewire's been around.  In fact i read that one of the fastest growing areas in music sales is vinyl records: the sound has more warmth, its more natural, and in terms of playback, valve amps are still the bees knees. All of this is analogue. For a lot of people, despite all the wiz bang PC hardware and software, analogue music is still the benchmark.

As far as video goes, I watch a fair bit of football (soccer) on digital pay TV on a plasma: I hate the way playfield lines/markings have visible stepping  when they are not vertical or horizontal to the camera and the way players have a "halo" of compression artifacts around them as they move on the ground.  Sometimes even the grass appears to move with a slight camera movement as the technology interpolates different regions of grass color.  

Why? Because the real world isn't a digital one. Digital sound, and video will always be an approximation.

[the_leander]

The stutter is there on my machine, but I'm certain if i could just get a video card that had 512 MB video ram, or a quadcore CPU or a SSD it would disappear..

Are you using Aero by any chance?

Why? Because the real world isn't a digital one. Digital sound, and video will always be an approximation.

Have to say, from my own perspective, digital terrestrial TV (freeview), both in terms of sound and picture quality is very much clearer here then analogue is. Not quite the difference between VHS and DVD, but not far off. Not ever having owned a massive telly I can't comment on artifacts. Perhaps you should have the TV dialed in professionally. From what you're describing it sounds like your contrast, brightness and sharpness levels are set waaay too high.

[stefcep2]

Are you using Aero by any chance?



Have to say, from my own perspective, digital terrestrial TV (freeview), both in terms of sound and picture quality is very much clearer here then analogue is. Not quite the difference between VHS and DVD, but not far off. Not ever having owned a massive telly I can't comment on artifacts. Perhaps you should have the TV dialed in professionally. From what you're describing it sounds like your contrast, brightness and sharpness levels are set waaay too high.

 i DID have aero on, but even with it off, especially when there is any hard drive activity, there is a delay-albeit slight- in the start menu opening or menus dropping down from the menu bar.  Look its not something that i can't live with it, it just doesn't feel as responsive as what I am used to on Amiga, and IMO with all the raw hardware power, I expect it not to happen at all.  Amy be my expectations are too high.

Digital no doubt is clearer in the sense that you don't get any ghosting, or snow like you do with analogue when the signal weakens.

What I'm talking about are definately digital compression artifacts.  I see the same thing with display TV's at retailers, and Pay TV booths in shopping centres, even with the newest panels with 1080i.  Its due to the way that fast moving objects like football players
are displayed in front of the background grass: there's a lot of quick variation in color between where the outline of the player ends and the background begins, and the system has to interpolate an in-between color or two, resulting in a fringe.  If you also look at the crowd moving past in the background as the camera follows a player, its basically shown as blocky incomprehensible mess, again due to compression interpolation of fast moving regions.  This is also visible on DVD IF you have fast moving action like watching sport.This has been especially noticeable in the Confederations Cup in Sth Africa at the moment.  Initially I thought it was my TV doing the scaling but it happens on all the TV's I've watched on display

[the_leander]

i DID have aero on, but even with it off, especially when there is any hard drive activity, there is a delay-albeit slight- in the start menu opening or menus dropping down from the menu bar.  Look its not something that i can't live with it, it just doesn't feel as responsive as what I am used to on Amiga, and IMO with all the raw hardware power, I expect it not to happen at all.  Amy be my expectations are too high.

Hmmm, oddness. I know the 9200 is right at the low end with regard Aero compatability, but assuming it has 128 or even 256mb of it's own ram it should be plenty... Mind if I mull over this a bit? I might be able to provide a solution that'll be far less costly then having to buy new kit.

Digital no doubt is clearer in the sense that you don't get any ghosting, or snow like you do with analogue when the signal weakens.

What I'm talking about are definately digital compression artifacts.  I see the same thing with display TV's at retailers, and Pay TV booths in shopping centres, even with the newest panels with 1080i.  Its due to the way that fast moving objects like football players
are displayed in front of the background grass: there's a lot of quick variation in color between where the outline of the player ends and the background begins, and the system has to interpolate an in-between color or two, resulting in a fringe.  If you also look at the crowd moving past in the background as the camera follows a player, its basically shown as blocky incomprehensible mess, again due to compression interpolation of fast moving regions.  This is also visible on DVD IF you have fast moving action like watching sport.This has been especially noticeable in the Confederations Cup in Sth Africa at the moment.  Initially I thought it was my TV doing the scaling but it happens on all the TV's I've watched on display

So it's an upscaling problem then? I know a lot of cheeper dvd players have this issue and all but a few of the freeview/freesat/sky boxes are the same... I have heard of really good upscaling dvd players from Philips, as far as freeview boxes go I don't know. I'll concede on this one however - unless the upscale is done well it will look shockingly bad, especially on a large panel. I've not heard any recomendations for digiboxes that do it well either tbh.

Lowering the contrast and brightness a touch might help in the meantime reduce the obviousness of it. But you're right in as much as poor upscalling will make it look a propper dogs dinner.

[adz]

YAWN!!!! This thread still going :confused: I lost interest around a 1000 posts ago...

[jkirk]

especially when there is any hard drive activity, there is a delay-albeit slight-

double check to make sure dma is on on your hard drives. barring that make sure you are using manufacturer drivers and not default ones from microsoft(they suck)

What I'm talking about are definately digital compression artifacts. I see the same thing with display TV's at retailers, and Pay TV booths in shopping centres, even with the newest panels with 1080i. Its due to the way that fast moving objects like football players
are displayed in front of the background grass: there's a lot of quick variation in color between where the outline of the player ends and the background begins, and the system has to interpolate an in-between color or two, resulting in a fringe. If you also look at the crowd moving past in the background as the camera follows a player, its basically shown as blocky incomprehensible mess, again due to compression interpolation of fast moving regions. This is also visible on DVD IF you have fast moving action like watching sport.This has been especially noticeable in the Confederations Cup in Sth Africa at the moment. Initially I thought it was my TV doing the scaling but it happens on all the TV's I've watched on display

yea this is normal behavior for an lcd tv. it has to do with the responsiveness in color changing. the tv can't keep up with the changes. they are getting better but have not beaten the responsiveness of a crt yet. i personally still use a hdtv crt atm. and just as the leander said upscaling plays it's part in this issue too.

[Daedalus]

yea this is normal behavior for an lcd tv. it has to do with the responsiveness in color changing. the tv can't keep up with the changes. they are getting better but have not beaten the responsiveness of a crt yet. i personally still use a hdtv crt atm. and just as the leander said upscaling plays it's part in this issue too.

Oooh, I always wanted a HD CRT! What model is it?? Could only find one on sale in Ireland when I went looking, and it wasn't great. I'm still gutted the whole world went with LCD seemingly to do with fashion rather than quality. I still have a lovely Trinitron monitor for my computer and a (non-HD) Philips CRT TV.

As for the artifacts, it's not just the responsiveness of LCD panels, a large part of it is simply the compression used by the digital broadcaster. It's like what you see when you watch a YouTube video for example, fast changing lines don't survive the compression particularly well. This will also show up on a full 1080p panel with a 1080p source if it's to do with compression. And HDTV signals tend to be compressed like that, so even with a full-HD decoder and a full-HD TV, you'll get more artifacts on channels which use more compression.

[stefcep2]

double check to make sure dma is on on your hard drives. barring that make sure you are using manufacturer drivers and not default ones from microsoft(they suck)

yea this is normal behavior for an lcd tv. it has to do with the responsiveness in color changing. the tv can't keep up with the changes. they are getting better but have not beaten the responsiveness of a crt yet. i personally still use a hdtv crt atm. and just as the leander said upscaling plays it's part in this issue too.

I look at the drivers for the hard drive, thanks, I am using MS ones.

HDTV CRT: Geez you would've paid a packet for that new.  I've read the best CRT can still outdo the best plasma/LCD for responsiveness, color balance and sharpness.  Do tell: what model is it?

[jkirk]

Oooh, I always wanted a HD CRT! What model is it??

phillips 32pw9100d it is hard to find info on it since it was a model produced for wal-mart stores(and a dang sight cheaper than the lcd models at the time.)

Could only find one on sale in Ireland when I went looking, and it wasn't great. I'm still gutted the whole world went with LCD seemingly to do with fashion rather than quality.

i tink it was more about convenience. my crt hdtv weighs in the neighborhood of 150 pounds(us)

As for the artifacts, it's not just the responsiveness of LCD panels, a large part of it is simply the compression used by the digital broadcaster. It's like what you see when you watch a YouTube video for example, fast changing lines don't survive the compression particularly well. This will also show up on a full 1080p panel with a 1080p source if it's to do with compression. And HDTV signals tend to be compressed like that, so even with a full-HD decoder and a full-HD TV, you'll get more artifacts on channels which use more compression.

yea garbage in garbage out. that was why i was focusing on the hardware itself. another thing is signal loss causes pixelation(glitches) up to and including loss of picture too.

[jkirk]

I look at the drivers for the hard drive, thanks, I am using MS ones.

check all your drivers particularly your sound, chipset, processor(if available), and vid card. i think the hd will always show up as an ms driver.

the problem with the default drivers(ones on the vista disk) is though they are written by the manufacturer (in some cases) they have to make the driver very generic due to space constraints on the cd(or dvd) as such much of the hardware acceleration is missing(or not working efficiently) so the inital install drivers are just to get you going till you can aquire the real drivers.

HDTV CRT: Geez you would've paid a packet for that new.  I've read the best CRT can still outdo the best plasma/LCD for responsiveness, color balance and sharpness.  Do tell: what model is it?

it's been a while since i bought it but i think i paid $700 for it new wile lcd panels were still $1500 to $2000.