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Offline buzz

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Re: Awareness by classic Amiga users about modern Amiga's?
« Reply #29 from previous page: May 09, 2009, 12:33:22 PM »
@astral, you know forums don't work like that. You don't set a topic and then get to control how people talk about the subject.
 

Offline Karlos

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Re: Awareness by classic Amiga users about modern Amiga's?
« Reply #30 on: May 09, 2009, 12:55:22 PM »
Quote

Crumb wrote:

IMHO all that bunch of redundant programs that do the same are a problem because it shows lack of a properly accepted standard.


It's an open platform. You can't have it both ways: If a standard existed and someone didn't like it, they'd just create an alternative. Which is exactly what happened. My point is that EyeAm obviously doesn't know what he's talking about with respect to linux package managers. Whichever one you use, they all work reasonably well. How difficult is it to install software under linux with a repository based package manager? For example:

sudo apt-get install

Or if the shell is too scary, there are many graphical interfaces.

It's mindnumbingly easy. It's the easiest software install ever conceived. You don't have to do anything. It goes away, downloads the package, sorts out any dependencies, installs it, configures it and unless it is something very low level, your package is immediately ready to use.

One could make the same argument against the Amiga UI system. MUI/Zune, ClassAct/Reaction, Triton, et al. They all came about because people weren't entirely satisfied with the stock gadtools interface. Yet, we all recognise that each has something to offer and as amiga users we generally don't complain about having so many interface sets installed.

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In the example of the pen drive the write cache should be disabled as default and advanced users should activate it to get extra speed. Most of users prefer to plug and unplug their pendrives when they want... if many users don't expect having to unmount anything it shows that certain Linux distros may lack user friendliness.


Again, it is all fully documented. Not reading the documentation is user error, IMNSHO. I never claimed linux was particularly user-friendly, I claimed it was robust.

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I guess any unix clone like linux will allow that. I think AmigaOS/MorphOS allows unmounting drives in a more or less legal way (at least with 3rd party commands) and you could edit any part of the disk (no memory protection, you know).


Actually, not that many I've seen. MacOSX claims to be unix based, but many moons ago when my then employers OSX server based filesystem failed, it was just impossible to do anything with it. That story is on this very site in an old thread somewhere. It was a complete disaster.

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I'm not sure about QNX or BeOS but they'll probably allow it too. I guess the only one that may not allow it is Windows


Other than a few third party binary level disk editors, I'm not aware of any such tools for AmigaOS. Back in the day, I recovered a corrupted RDB, by hand, with AZap. It worked but it was very time consuming and a lot of guesswork was involved.

By comparison, the inode editing facilities for linux are built-in and have a degree of sanity checking that stop you from making any data corruption much worse since you are editing the fields in the inode structure, not simply editing a hex representation of a sector as I had to do with AZap.
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Offline DiskDoctor

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Re: Awareness by classic Amiga users about modern Amiga's?
« Reply #31 on: May 09, 2009, 05:29:58 PM »
Quote

Astral wrote:

In regards to having the Amiga *GROW* as a whole, company, user base, practical uses and so on, maybe it is best that the software base is improved before getting the word out there? Maybe it is best to improve the hardware before getting the word out there?

What steps do you think should be taken, including advertising, and at what point?


I think marketing is the only way to hit any numbers easily.

Personally I think that when MorphOS (Or AmigaOS) is released on Macs Minis, that's a big chance to attack the huge potential user base - for the very first time.

Of course 98,9% would screw it at a first contact but please recount the numbers.  Mac people are far better group to a new OS proposition than any other.  Linux people hate AmigaOS because it ain't come for free, face it.  Besides it's too easy to administer it so ain't worth bothering since they might not be called such EXPERTS then (this is pretty much a joke...).  Windows people like to have decent install shields and MS Office 120% compliance.

EDIT* AROS is free and x86 already which only mean x86 Amiga-like OS didn't succeed much off the Amigan shore.  Consider Minis again.

I don't mean paid ads or something - that's pretty much silly.  I mean forums mostly, that's all.

One more about Linux hostility since this is a part of the thread already - I'm always happy to be able to share my opinion...  Robust? Perhaps.  Does great work where employed? Perhaps.  But it is definitely NOT a desktop system by all means of definition of a desktop system.  Linux ruined or ate my data many times and I blamed myself, right.  I am now a programmer, kind of, I have to use Kubuntu.  So I don't question that, do not like it == change your job!  But when the time hits five call it, I want to rest, not play helpdesk or a workstation administrator!  While lying on a couch, had my ax buried for a while, I want to chill out and fulfill my silly home routines with peace of mind.  I feel kindda anxious when I have to watch what I touch because if I do much enough, Linux will kill my data and all my family.  I don't wanna feel like playing minesweeper on some bank main DB server.  So I use Mac or Xp for sake of mental security.  And remember that Desktop is not a system for several thousands of prophessionals, it's for anybody in question not being a retard.  So those all moaning like "my grandma uses kubuntu", "my dog uses kubuntu", "kubuntu with openoffice is a best business solution ever", "why does ms office still exist" make me nearly throw up.  Hence my statement.
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Offline Karlos

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Re: Awareness by classic Amiga users about modern Amiga's?
« Reply #32 on: May 09, 2009, 05:43:14 PM »
Quote
Linux people hate AmigaOS because it ain't come for free, face it. Besides it's too easy to administer it so ain't worth bothering since they might not be called such EXPERTS then (this is pretty much a joke...)


Rubbish. I use linux at work and at home and there is no OS I like better than AmigaOS. My point is that linux is used professionally in places where any existing version of AmigaOS would never be considered because it is robust.

Quote
One more about Linux hostility since this is a part of the thread already - I'm always happy to be able to share my opinion... Robust? Perhaps. Does great work where employed? Perhaps. But it is definitely NOT a desktop system by all means of definition of a desktop system. Linux ruined or ate my data many times and I blamed myself, right.


If you are using a KDE4 based window manager you should blame yourself for any loss of data caused by X going down. You have the choice to use a robust window manager such as fvwm, but you opted for KDE. Even gnome is more stable. If you are using KDE4/plasma with all the desktop effects and other gubbins then you are probably using proprietry drivers which taint the kernel also, introducing instabilities.

Since all of these are your choice, then you can't blame the kernel for failing as a result of choosing to use an immature and buggy desktop.

Now, I'm not a kernel puritan, my machine at home is using proprietry nvidia drivers but I understand that by doing so, I may have compromised the stability of my kernel. That said, it has never crashed or locked up, even under very heavy load.
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Offline warpdesign

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Re: Awareness by classic Amiga users about modern Amiga's?
« Reply #33 on: May 09, 2009, 07:13:10 PM »
Quote

Now, I'm not a kernel puritan, my machine at home is using proprietry nvidia drivers but I understand that by doing so, I may have compromised the stability of my kernel. That said, it has never crashed or locked up, even under very heavy load.

That is new to me: why would open-source drivers be more stable than closed source ones ?
I mean: they may or may not be better... but what would make them better everytime.
Look: if I decide to develop a driver, releasing the sources won't make it any better...
 

Offline HenryCase

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Re: Awareness by classic Amiga users about modern Amiga's?
« Reply #34 on: May 09, 2009, 07:36:40 PM »
Quote

warpdesign wrote:
Quote

Now, I'm not a kernel puritan, my machine at home is using proprietry nvidia drivers but I understand that by doing so, I may have compromised the stability of my kernel. That said, it has never crashed or locked up, even under very heavy load.

That is new to me: why would open-source drivers be more stable than closed source ones ?
I mean: they may or may not be better... but what would make them better everytime.
Look: if I decide to develop a driver, releasing the sources won't make it any better...


Open source improves code stability because there are more people involved who are able to track down and fix bugs.
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Offline Karlos

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Re: Awareness by classic Amiga users about modern Amiga's?
« Reply #35 on: May 09, 2009, 07:38:31 PM »
Quote

warpdesign wrote:
Quote

Now, I'm not a kernel puritan, my machine at home is using proprietry nvidia drivers but I understand that by doing so, I may have compromised the stability of my kernel. That said, it has never crashed or locked up, even under very heavy load.

That is new to me: why would open-source drivers be more stable than closed source ones ?
I mean: they may or may not be better... but what would make them better everytime.
Look: if I decide to develop a driver, releasing the sources won't make it any better...


Simple. Proprietry drivers may well be written by people that know the specific hardware inside out but don't really know the host's graphics system too well. The bugfix listings that come up for nvidia's drivers alone demonstrate that. Windows drivers come first and are ported to linux.

There's no real reason why graphics drivers need to be kernel modules and most well written open source ones aren't. Those offered by nvidia and AMD, however, are.
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Offline quarkx

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Re: Awareness by classic Amiga users about modern Amiga's?
« Reply #36 on: May 09, 2009, 07:57:56 PM »
Quote


Open source improves code stability because there are more people involved who are able to track down and fix bugs.

It also invites a lot of half baked code that causes more problems than what its worth. Any "Nut" can add code whether it works or not. There are no strict guidelines to go by, no quality control.
-But I am off topic.
Just my 2 cents
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Offline DiskDoctor

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Re: Awareness by classic Amiga users about modern Amiga's?
« Reply #37 on: May 09, 2009, 07:58:01 PM »
Quote

Karlos wrote:
Quote
Linux people hate AmigaOS because it ain't come for free, face it. Besides it's too easy to administer it so ain't worth bothering since they might not be called such EXPERTS then (this is pretty much a joke...)


Rubbish. I use linux at work and at home and there is no OS I like better than AmigaOS. My point is that linux is used professionally in places where any existing version of AmigaOS would never be considered because it is robust.


Look if you want to deny my statement, do it point blank or at least stick to the merit, though this requires guts I know.  That kind of comments, they're just nasty, you're sure you can't do more?  It doesn't prove you're intelligent, it only proves you have a problem with anti-/non- Linux people.  That's a typical example of posting that is in spite of discussing the issue, cutting out some ambiguous and pretty off-topic phrases to make fun of the author.  You're here to talk about Amiga or to pull legs of people not liking to have Linux on their hardware, cellphone, wife, you know what I mean?  Ask yourself this question please.

Now to reply, try to do this with Linux - try to read through some legal statement in acrobat reader, then paste it to the oo document.  Also, get to a company sales, receive a request from your customer and respond with a oo-made doc rich offer.  Would you?  Many "programmers" think all business is about c programming and vi.  I do not understand.

Also when you show off so keen in Linux - do you expect an ambiguous user (1 000 000 000 people we're talking roughly) to configure ANYTHING after system out of box install in order to use it without fear?  You only show how much full of themselves Linux people are, considering themselves "the propher" Desktop users, while others still remain ***sholes, morons, MS conspiracy part-ofs, lamers, non-having-anything-todo-with-THE-ITs etc.  This is sad and embarassing.

Where's a room for Amiga in such a mentality??

Quote

Quote
One more about Linux hostility since this is a part of the thread already - I'm always happy to be able to share my opinion... Robust? Perhaps. Does great work where employed? Perhaps. But it is definitely NOT a desktop system by all means of definition of a desktop system. Linux ruined or ate my data many times and I blamed myself, right.


If you are using a KDE4 based window manager you should blame yourself for any loss of data caused by X going down. You have the choice to use a robust window manager such as fvwm, but you opted for KDE. Even gnome is more stable. If you are using KDE4/plasma with all the desktop effects and other gubbins then you are probably using proprietry drivers which taint the kernel also, introducing instabilities.

Since all of these are your choice, then you can't blame the kernel for failing as a result of choosing to use an immature and buggy desktop.

Now, I'm not a kernel puritan, my machine at home is using proprietry nvidia drivers but I understand that by doing so, I may have compromised the stability of my kernel. That said, it has never crashed or locked up, even under very heavy load.


It's KDE but I like it as it is (though I can re-log into Gnome UI). Thanks much for advice but I'm not gonna use it.  I like stuff as is, ain't touching any admin matters unless mandatory or critical.  Now I use Linux for my work only and since it's programming mostly, instead of taking care for my data I subversion it.  Backup is a better way than proper sophisticated maintenance.  Economically.

The conclusion. I for the Lord's sake never ever mentioned AmigaOS IS better than Linux.  I only mentioned Linux people aren't a good group to be talked about Amiga at all.  If you exchange some delusional and fun-to-be AmigaOS and Linux comparisons, either in work or home, it only means you among many people, see and read things you're supposed to encounter.  Don't want to be rude here but this kind of mental twist requires attention.  I mean as long as one wants to be more happy.

One more - if you want to discuss, let us go PM.  You feel insulted perhaps.  Well you should now I'm pretty sensitive and I have my rights.  You put my words upside down and make laugh at it, I don't like that so I responded, as simple as that.
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Offline kolla

Re: Awareness by classic Amiga users about modern Amiga's?
« Reply #38 on: May 09, 2009, 08:14:39 PM »
Quote

quarkx wrote:
Quote


Open source improves code stability because there are more people involved who are able to track down and fix bugs.

It also invites a lot of half baked code that causes more problems than what its worth. Any "Nut" can add code whether it works or not. There are no strict guidelines to go by, no quality control.
-But I am off topic.
Just my 2 cents


You're all wrong, however. :-)

There are guide lines, and the quality control is buildt in, as anyone can read your code and critisize it, improve it etc.
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Offline warpdesign

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Re: Awareness by classic Amiga users about modern Amiga's?
« Reply #39 on: May 09, 2009, 08:49:38 PM »
Quote

Open source improves code stability because there are more people involved who are able to track down and fix bugs.
[/quote}
I don't agree. Open source do not improve anything, nor does it mean they are more people working on it.
They are good developers in open and closed source projects. There are good guidlines in both closed and opened source projects. And the other way around.

Some open source project doesn't mean there are magically lots of people working on it... Often, the original authors are themeselves working on it because no one else knows it and can correctly work on it anyway.
 

Offline DiskDoctor

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Re: Awareness by classic Amiga users about modern Amiga's?
« Reply #40 on: May 09, 2009, 09:29:22 PM »
Quote

warpdesign wrote:
Quote

Open source improves code stability because there are more people involved who are able to track down and fix bugs.

I don't agree. Open source do not improve anything, nor does it mean they are more people working on it.
They are good developers in open and closed source projects. There are good guidlines in both closed and opened source projects. And the other way around.


I'll just say one sentence here that many, many people can barely comprehend, I have not the faintest idea why.

The best and only bug-tracking system is THE CUSTOMER that might cancel multi-milion dollar agreement, or just leave the "successful clients" list, also moaning about it all over.

Sometimes I wonder what's the name of my delusional world I live in.  Must... be... delusional... has to...

I mean if Your customer merely is able to pay the invoice, call your company as it is - a grocery, not IT or business especially.

Quote

Some open source project doesn't mean there are magically lots of people working on it... Often, the original authors are themeselves working on it because no one else knows it and can correctly work on it anyway.


Really???? Impossible! You lie!
Was: Mac Mini PPC running MorphOS 2.4
Now: Amiga Forever 2010 with AmiKit and AmigaSYS
Not used: Icaros Desktop 1.2 (reason: no wifi)
Planned soon: an OS4 system
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Offline warpdesign

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Re: Awareness by classic Amiga users about modern Amiga's?
« Reply #41 on: May 09, 2009, 09:45:51 PM »
closed source = evil
open source = good quality
Apple = good guys
MS = bad guys
...

So many myths...
 

Offline Karlos

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Re: Awareness by classic Amiga users about modern Amiga's?
« Reply #42 on: May 09, 2009, 09:49:13 PM »
Quote
That's a typical example of posting that is in spite of discussing the issue, cutting out some ambiguous and pretty off-topic phrases to make fun of the author. You're here to talk about Amiga or to pull legs of people not liking to have Linux on their hardware, cellphone, wife, you know what I mean? Ask yourself this question please.


Jeesh, don't take it so personally. I am simply addressing a few falsehoods put about by some people here:

1) That "linux people" hate AmigaOS. It's complete rubbish, I know more people with Amiga backgrounds that prefer to use linux on their x86 boxes than any other x86 OS. Despite obvious differences, the two OS have a great deal in common in the way they are organised and thought out.

2) That linux is "crap" based on the mishaps of people that haven't used it properly and have managed to lose data. The fact is, data is safer under linux than most other mainstream operating systems. It's one reason why it is so popular as a server OS (economically, being free is an even bigger incentive, of course). Even using a desktop distribution, I've never lost data on linux yet. In contrast, I've lost data on my Amiga more than once.

At no point whatsoever did I say or imply that linux is "user friendly" or that it is the OS everybody should use.
It's fine not to like linux, at times it can be a complete pig, but the criticisms that were levelled against it weren't accurate. Operating Systems are, by and large, tools. For serious work, you use what gets the job done. For some its Windows, for others MacOS, for others its linux.

AmigaOS's principal attraction IMO, is that it's actually fun to use and fun to write code for.
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Offline stefcep2

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Re: Awareness by classic Amiga users about modern Amiga's?
« Reply #43 on: May 10, 2009, 01:26:06 AM »
Quote

bloodline wrote:


AmigaOS doesn't really have a Kernel... Almost everything runs in UserMode and there is no Operating system Application separation... everything lives together.

Learn about how AmigaOS works before you comment on it!



The word "Kernel" originated on the Amiga.  It most certainly DOES have one...but it might not be the SAME as your idea of what it means..
 

Offline stefcep2

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Re: Awareness by classic Amiga users about modern Amiga's?
« Reply #44 on: May 10, 2009, 01:58:12 AM »
Quote

Karlos wrote:

It's mindnumbingly easy. It's the easiest software install ever conceived. You don't have to do anything. It goes away, downloads the package, sorts out any dependencies, installs it, configures it and unless it is something very low level, your package is immediately ready to use.




In theory.  How well the "dependencies are sorted" depends on the person writing the package.  That is not 100% reliable.  A 100k dependency ( within a total of 10 MB of dependencies) that wasn't updated when installing a 700k SNES emulator meant that I could no longer boot.  So much for "robustness".  I then dual-booted into XP, logged on the forums and found the solution eventually..how would an average user with one PC and only Linux at home do this?  In contrast my XPPro system has  not blue-screened once in 3 years, and never failed to boot and I've installed and removed all sorts of rubbish.  

The concept of installing from a repo is flawed because it depends on the writer, of the particular package you want to install, knowing exactly what the writers of the dependencies have done.  Thats impossible to be 100% certain when 1000's of little dependencies exist.  But thats what happens beacsue Linux is a collaboration of thousands of independent programmers in all parts of the world, each with their own area of expertise. Its ridiculous that a 700k emulator needs an additional 10 MB of additional Operating system dependencies-written by various authors, at various times, just to work!!!  10x more code in the dependencies than in the actual program: OFCOURSE there is a high probability of soemthing going wrong. Most Amiga software installs from commercial software were self contained: you might need a 3rd party library but that was rare.  Hell in many cases you just drag the folder onto the hard drive..

If you have the time and inclination to maintain your Linux OS by forever logging into forums, often to cut and paste text commands that you have no idea what they do and will never remember, then Linux is for you.  For the rest of us we just want things to work, and i'll gladly pay $120 for a commercial operating system upgrade for that.