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Author Topic: Does eight bit computing excite you?  (Read 9132 times)

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Offline Speelgoedmannetje

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Re: Does eight bit computing excite you?
« Reply #14 on: March 01, 2009, 01:34:13 AM »
Quote

bloodline wrote:

Read: :-)
http://arstechnica.com/cpu/2q00/x86future/isa-future-1.html
As far as I can read from that article, they state that with the virtualisation of the x86 since the introduction of the Pentium Pro (a feature I thought only the Transmeta Crusoe could do; the only difference is the Crusoe is a titbit more flexible), Intel dealt with the hardware limitations of x86, but this article didn't wipe away my concerns about an obsolete instruction set crippling compilers.
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Offline Speelgoedmannetje

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Re: Does eight bit computing excite you?
« Reply #15 on: March 01, 2009, 01:41:21 AM »
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bloodline wrote:
I doubt a human could make code as efficient as a compiler on a modern CPU... Modern CPU's have hidden register renaming schemes, instruction scheduling, caching policies... the list is endless... I doubt you could know all the optimization rules now!
Ehm, I see it totally different.
Compilers have can compile anything, they're made to expect everything, so they have to exclude anything else, so to say.
Your code will always be completely different from compiler code because the compiler isn't and cannot be aware of what you want.
While you are!
Yes, the compiler can make things a hell of a lot faster according to mathematic rules and special instructions. But it can't make the code more straightforward.
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Offline bloodline

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Re: Does eight bit computing excite you?
« Reply #16 on: March 01, 2009, 01:12:14 PM »
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Speelgoedmannetje wrote:
Quote

bloodline wrote:
I doubt a human could make code as efficient as a compiler on a modern CPU... Modern CPU's have hidden register renaming schemes, instruction scheduling, caching policies... the list is endless... I doubt you could know all the optimization rules now!
Ehm, I see it totally different.
Compilers have can compile anything, they're made to expect everything, so they have to exclude anything else, so to say.
Your code will always be completely different from compiler code because the compiler isn't and cannot be aware of what you want.
While you are!


Yeah, I understand what you are saying. But the whole RISC idea eliminates your options, you only really have a limited number of ways to implement any particular algorithm... This allows the chip designers to optimize the CPU's operation.

Compilers and CPUs are note developed in isolation anymore. They are both working to the same goal... more efficient execution.

Ok, there is the argument that the compiler does have to generalize... But after looking at the source code for Micropolis (the original SimCity), I have no idea how it could even be written in ASM! Working in a high level language gives you far more power over complex programming!

Quote

Yes, the compiler can make things a hell of a lot faster according to mathematic rules and special instructions. But it can't make the code more straightforward.


Modern CPUs aren't meant to be programmed directly any more.

Anyway, to drag this back on topic... No, I would hate to have to go back to the 8bit days... For me working in C++ using Apple's Xcode IDE is far more comfortable.

Offline bloodline

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Re: Does eight bit computing excite you?
« Reply #17 on: March 01, 2009, 02:14:38 PM »
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ChuckT wrote:
Can a market for 6502 Computers exist anymore?

If you were asked to develop material for learning, what would you say?

If you attached an IBM video chip to a 6502, would it be a worthwhile computer to get involved in?

I was thinking that it would be easier to develop more eight bit systems into something that the Commodore 64 never was but I think a lot of people are hooked on game cube and x-box.


It just occured to me that if you want to do some 8bit development with access to modern hardware... simply buy a normal übercheap PC and run it in "Real Mode" :-D

Offline Speelgoedmannetje

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Re: Does eight bit computing excite you?
« Reply #18 on: March 01, 2009, 05:04:48 PM »
Quote

bloodline wrote:

Ok, there is the argument that the compiler does have to generalize... But after looking at the source code for Micropolis (the original SimCity), I have no idea how it could even be written in ASM! Working in a high level language gives you far more power over complex programming!
.
Oh man I know I know! But I've managed to make a pseudo object oriented library in ASM for the Atmel ATMEGA16.
It was the first thing I did when programming in ASM, and it was a titbit of a pain in the arse, really. But damn, when you get the hang of it, the complete power you've got over a system, I know it's wrong... but it feels so good...
;-)
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Offline trekiej

Re: Does eight bit computing excite you?
« Reply #19 on: March 01, 2009, 08:05:52 PM »
@ ChuckT
look at www.parallax.com ,it has an 8 core MCU called the propeller.
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Offline Speelgoedmannetje

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Re: Does eight bit computing excite you?
« Reply #20 on: March 01, 2009, 09:43:18 PM »
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trekiej wrote:
@ ChuckT
look at www.parallax.com ,it has an 8 core MCU called the propeller.
Toys!
Damn, I want to play with that  stuff...

Got no money though  :cry:
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Offline trekiej

Re: Does eight bit computing excite you?
« Reply #21 on: March 03, 2009, 12:12:56 AM »
I believe it is $12.95 US for a 40 pin chip.
There is also QFN and QFP types as well.
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Offline bloodline

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Re: Does eight bit computing excite you?
« Reply #22 on: March 09, 2009, 11:10:59 AM »
Quote

Speelgoedmannetje wrote:
Quote

trekiej wrote:
@ ChuckT
look at www.parallax.com ,it has an 8 core MCU called the propeller.
Toys!
Damn, I want to play with that  stuff...

Got no money though  :cry:


Cheer up Speel! Read this instead :-)

http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~fp/courses/15213-s06/misc/asm64-handout.pdf

Offline whabang

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Re: Does eight bit computing excite you?
« Reply #23 on: March 15, 2009, 02:28:34 PM »
Quote

bloodline wrote:
It just occured to me that if you want to do some 8bit development with access to modern hardware... simply buy a normal übercheap PC and run it in "Real Mode" :-D

I was thinking the same thing. :-)
Beating the dead horse since 2002.
 

Offline trekiej

Re: Does eight bit computing excite you?
« Reply #24 on: March 16, 2009, 04:53:06 AM »
8 bit is dead, long the 8 bit!
Uh,something like that.
 :-D
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Offline Speelgoedmannetje

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Re: Does eight bit computing excite you?
« Reply #25 on: March 23, 2009, 06:03:17 AM »
Quote

trekiej wrote:
8 bit is dead, long the 8 bit!
Uh,something like that.
 :-D
Something like 8 bit is dead, long live 8 core emulating 8 bit? ;-)
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Offline trekiej

Re: Does eight bit computing excite you?
« Reply #26 on: March 24, 2009, 02:37:13 AM »
lol
I wonder if they thought about using 8 eight bit cores.
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Offline motorollin

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Re: Does eight bit computing excite you?
« Reply #27 on: March 24, 2009, 09:04:33 AM »
Maybe that's how 64-bit computers work ;-)
Code: [Select]
10  IT\'S THE FINAL COUNTDOWN
20  FOR C = 1 TO 2
30     DA-NA-NAAAA-NAAAA DA-NA-NA-NA-NAAAA
40     DA-NA-NAAAA-NAAAA DA-NA-NA-NA-NA-NA-NAAAAA
50  NEXT C
60  NA-NA-NAAAA
70  NA-NA NA-NA-NA-NA-NAAAA NAAA-NAAAAAAAAAAA
80  GOTO 10
 

Offline trekiej

Re: Does eight bit computing excite you?
« Reply #28 on: April 10, 2009, 07:29:43 AM »
Yeeeeee Haaaaaaa!

Hey moe, its a skrew dwiver!
Nyuk Nyuk Nyuk

I'll show you a screw driver lain brain.
Amiga 2000 Forever :)
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Offline trekiej

Re: Does eight bit computing excite you?
« Reply #29 from previous page: April 11, 2009, 04:13:44 AM »
http://www.parallax.com/
The propeller chips are now 7.95 U.S.

http://www.makershed.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=MKPP1

I saw this first at Amigaworld.net.
Amiga 2000 Forever :)
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