Author Topic: USB VIDEO ON THE DENEB? (Read 12843 times)

Darrin · « **on:** September 02, 2008, 08:09:14 PM »

I was checking my emails this morning and I had the usual "on sale" email from Tiger Direct attempting to get me to part with some cash. One item was a USB to VGA video adapter. In the same category was a USB video card:

http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/SearchTools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=3255944&CatId=1428

Assuming some sort of driver could be written, is such a device a viable alternative to expensive Zorro cards on the Amiga via the Deneb card?

I wouldn't mind enjoying "resolutions of up to 1280 x 1024 at 24 bit color" for $65. :-)

B00tDisk · « **Reply #1 on:** September 02, 2008, 08:23:41 PM »

USB video dongles of this kind are horribly slow on full-speed USB2 connections.

I can't imagine they'll be worth a flip on the Amiga, driver or no.

You know how people freak out about "oooh nooo it doesn't refresh fast enough!" regarding Amiga emulators on the PC? Yeah, this'll give them something genuine to complain about.

Darrin · « **Reply #2 on:** September 02, 2008, 09:00:18 PM »

Quote

B00tDisk wrote:
USB video dongles of this kind are horribly slow on full-speed USB2 connections.

I can't imagine they'll be worth a flip on the Amiga, driver or no.

You know how people freak out about "oooh nooo it doesn't refresh fast enough!" regarding Amiga emulators on the PC? Yeah, this'll give them something genuine to complain about.

LOL. You could be right.

I used Siamese on the Amiga using the normal serial port to retarget 8 bit to 24 bit screens to a PC using it's graphics card in resolutions up to 1024x768 using nothing more than a 68020 with 6MB RAM. It was certainly usable for Workbench and for Word Processing.

I use a Cybervision 64/3D, but it's really used to provide a pretty Workbench as most applications launch into native Amiga screen modes.

For that sort of use this might be OK and it is certainly affordable.

platon42 · « **Reply #3 on:** September 02, 2008, 10:08:49 PM »

Quote

B00tDisk wrote:
USB video dongles of this kind are horribly slow on full-speed USB2 connections.

I can't imagine they'll be worth a flip on the Amiga, driver or no.

You know how people freak out about "oooh nooo it doesn't refresh fast enough!" regarding Amiga emulators on the PC? Yeah, this'll give them something genuine to complain about.

We're not talking about USB 1.1 full-speed. We're talking about USB 2.0 Highspeed. The Deneb is able to achieve a data rate of more than 8 MB/sec. This is surely slower by a few factors than a real Zorro III card, but still could at least be twice as fast as a Zorro II gfx board.

However, given that these adapters are normally employed on fast PCs, they usually use some kind of lossless compression on the data before sending it over the bus. If this is the case and cannot be turned off, it would really slow down the gfx update considerably.

Anyway, only a few of these adapters have been announced with Linux drivers and reverse engineering on that kind of device could be a bit arkward.

Just today, I found a better one with bith digital DVI and VGA output for 70 EUR ( http://www.pearl.de/a-PX3103-1419.shtml ), but I still consider this too much for just experimenting with it (donation anyone?

)

With "current" Amiga graphic boards having problems outputting native resolutions like 1280x1024 and higher, and no-one coping with DVI or HDMI output, an USB graphics adapter might be a solution. It wouldn't be very fast, but it would provide the resolutions (up to 1680x1050 in 24 bit).

Just my two cents.

Darrin · « **Reply #4 on:** September 02, 2008, 10:52:31 PM »

Thanks for that info Chris. I figured that if Siamese could work then there was some potential here.

I'll throw 20 Euros into the pot if you want to try. Do we have 3 more volunteers for a worthwhile project?

Jose · « **Reply #5 on:** September 03, 2008, 01:32:57 AM »

By the title I thought you were gonna talk about USB2.0 DVBS/T tunner cards and / or video capture cards. Having decent video on the Amiga would be nice.

Gulliver · « **Reply #6 on:** September 03, 2008, 04:22:18 AM »

To Chris:

If you ever manage to get a working picasso96 driver for any USB VGA dongles, i will surely buy more than one Deneb in the future!
The same will happen if you deliver a VHI driver for a mpeg/tv tuner/capture usb dongle device.
I am very short in cash these days, but i would have sponsored some $$ for that purpose.

mboehmer_e3b · « **Reply #7 on:** September 03, 2008, 05:28:48 AM »

Quote

USB video dongles of this kind are horribly slow on full-speed USB2 connections.

As Chris stated already, the DENEB uses a real high speed USB2.0 host.
Just take a look into to E3B website, there are benchmarks for the DENEB publically available - speeds of above 6MB/s are clearly not full speed links.

Michael

platon42 · « **Reply #8 on:** September 03, 2008, 07:12:16 AM »

Quote

Jose wrote:
By the title I thought you were gonna talk about USB2.0 DVBS/T tunner cards and / or video capture cards. Having decent video on the Amiga would be nice.

There is a "new" USB Video class specification, but unfortunately, this standard is only meant for webcams. V4.1 has the class descriptors and detection for it built in, but that's currently all.

As for DVB-S/T, I'm not watching TV myself for about 10 years, so I'm not really too fond about it writing such a driver -- if anybody wants to do it, I'll happily provide Developer Specs. Also, you have to consider that a classic amiga is definately not fast enough for realtime MPEG2 stream decoding (not considering the fastest PPC amigas), so this class driver would only be reasonable for MorphOS Pegasos/MacMini machines.

platon42 · « **Reply #9 on:** September 03, 2008, 07:16:29 AM »

Quote

Darrin wrote:
Thanks for that info Chris. I figured that if Siamese could work then there was some potential here.

I'll throw 20 Euros into the pot if you want to try. Do we have 3 more volunteers for a worthwhile project?

Speaking about potential, I think for embedded machines without onboard gfx (aka EFIKA), an adapter that uses less than 2.5W (that's the maximum allowed for USB devices) would be better suited than a Radeon whatsoever. At least for my planned Touchscreen-Car-Computer project :-)

About that "bounty" -- even if I'd get the adapter, this would not come with an obligation to complete the project. As said above, the task would be rather complex.

amigadave · « **Reply #10 on:** September 03, 2008, 07:39:28 AM »

Quote

platon42 wrote:
We're not talking about USB 1.1 full-speed. We're talking about USB 2.0 Highspeed. The Deneb is able to achieve a data rate of more than 8 MB/sec. This is surely slower by a few factors than a real Zorro III card, but still could at least be twice as fast as a Zorro II gfx board.

However, given that these adapters are normally employed on fast PCs, they usually use some kind of lossless compression on the data before sending it over the bus. If this is the case and cannot be turned off, it would really slow down the gfx update considerably.

Anyway, only a few of these adapters have been announced with Linux drivers and reverse engineering on that kind of device could be a bit arkward.

Just today, I found a better one with both digital DVI and VGA output for 70 EUR ( http://www.pearl.de/a-PX3103-1419.shtml ), but I still consider this too much for just experimenting with it (donation anyone? )

With "current" Amiga graphic boards having problems outputting native resolutions like 1280x1024 and higher, and no-one coping with DVI or HDMI output, an USB graphics adapter might be a solution. It wouldn't be very fast, but it would provide the resolutions (up to 1680x1050 in 24 bit).

Just my two cents.

Interesting idea. You are saying that it might be able to run twice as fast as a PicassoII card (which is ZorroII)? I did not realize that my Retina Z3 & PicassoIV cards are supposed to be more than twice as fast as my GVP Spectrum, or PicassoII cards. Shows I am not using them enough to notice the difference, I will have to do something about that. Perhaps the difference in performance is not that great, but the potential of the two different Zorro busses is?

If, and only if, you truly believe that there is a better than 50% chance of success at getting one to work on the Deneb, I will donate up to $20 US dollars through Paypal toward the purchase of a likely USB to HDMI/DVI display adapter. If I were not broke I would buy the adapter of your choice (within reason) for you to testand write drivers for and just ask that you return it to me when you are done, but I am retired and poor now.

I try to support as many Amiga developers as I can, in some small way.

amigadave · « **Reply #11 on:** September 03, 2008, 07:45:13 AM »

Quote

platon42 wrote:
Quote

Darrin wrote:
Thanks for that info Chris. I figured that if Siamese could work then there was some potential here.

I'll throw 20 Euros into the pot if you want to try. Do we have 3 more volunteers for a worthwhile project?

Speaking about potential, I think for embedded machines without onboard gfx (aka EFIKA), an adapter that uses less than 2.5W (that's the maximum allowed for USB devices) would be better suited than a Radeon whatsoever. At least for my planned Touchscreen-Car-Computer project :-)

About that "bounty" -- even if I'd get the adapter, this would not come with an obligation to complete the project. As said above, the task would be rather complex.

I must have been typing my reply at the same time you composed the above.

I would be interested to read more about your Touchscreen-Car-Computer project. I have one of my own, but it is just an Intel Mac Mini attached to a 7" Lilliput touchscreen and dual booting Vista and OSX. It also has a GPS antennae so I can use it for voice command turn-by-turn directions.

Darrin · « **Reply #12 on:** September 03, 2008, 11:09:46 AM »

Quote

platon42 wrote:
Speaking about potential, I think for embedded machines without onboard gfx (aka EFIKA), an adapter that uses less than 2.5W (that's the maximum allowed for USB devices) would be better suited than a Radeon whatsoever. At least for my planned Touchscreen-Car-Computer project :-)

Sounds interesting. I never had a chance to set up my Efika with MorphOS 2 while I was home as I was too busy with my kids and the Deneb card (24 days off work flew by!) so extra graphics card options are always welcome.

Quote

About that "bounty" -- even if I'd get the adapter, this would not come with an obligation to complete the project. As said above, the task would be rather complex.

I absolutely understand and I'm still willing to chip in. Unless my Cybervision breaks down then I personally don't have a need for such a device, but I think it would be great for the community. Besides, you've saved me way more than 20 Euros by providing me a $20 Ethernet option instead of a more expensive Zorro card so it's the least I can do. ;-)

arnljot · « **Reply #13 on:** September 03, 2008, 11:25:37 AM »

I would chip in with €20, and I understand that it´s not a sure thing.

HyAmi · « **Reply #14 on:** September 03, 2008, 11:26:34 AM »

Quote

About that "bounty" -- even if I'd get the adapter, this would not come with an obligation to complete the project. As said above, the task would be rather complex.

I understand/agree. I'm willing to donate 20 euros as well. Just let us know if you want to give it a try.

Author Topic: USB VIDEO ON THE DENEB? (Read 12843 times)

Darrin

USB VIDEO ON THE DENEB?

B00tDisk

Re: USB VIDEO ON THE DENEB?

Darrin

Re: USB VIDEO ON THE DENEB?

platon42

Re: USB VIDEO ON THE DENEB?

Darrin

Re: USB VIDEO ON THE DENEB?

Jose

Re: USB VIDEO ON THE DENEB?

Gulliver

Re: USB VIDEO ON THE DENEB?

mboehmer_e3b

Re: USB VIDEO ON THE DENEB?

platon42

Re: USB VIDEO ON THE DENEB?

platon42

Re: USB VIDEO ON THE DENEB?

amigadave

Re: USB VIDEO ON THE DENEB?

amigadave

Re: USB VIDEO ON THE DENEB?

Darrin

Re: USB VIDEO ON THE DENEB?

arnljot

Re: USB VIDEO ON THE DENEB?

HyAmi

Re: USB VIDEO ON THE DENEB?