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Offline HammerDTopic starter

Deneb USB questions
« on: August 26, 2008, 06:19:36 PM »
I posted this on amigaworld.net, but no one is answering over there, so I thought I would try it here...

Hi everyone, I am interested in purchasing the new Deneb USB solution for my classic Amigas. I have a few questions and I was wondering if those of you who already purchased the device could lend a hand....

1) I primarily use an A4000/CS PPC with OS 4.0 classic and two A4000T machines running OS 3.9 using the on-board A4000T SCSI. I understand that you CANNOT use the Deneb in DMA mode with the A4000T because the buster Rev.11 only allows ONE busmaster device. In the case of the A4000T that is already used by the on-board A4091 scsi controller. So...having said that:

On an A4000T/060 - can you still use the Deneb in PIO mode? When transferring files from a USB stick and/or using USB Audio or USB network, how HIGH is the CPU Usage - assuming a 060/50Mhz cpu? Is the device stable and reliable?

On an A4000D/060/CS PPC with OS4, I understand the Deneb also will only work in PIO mode due to not fully developed software supporting OS 4's new memory architecture. Has anyone used a Deneb under OS4 and again - how well is it working with USB Audio and networking? How about CPU usage? Is it high? (assume a PPC 604e 200MHz)

2) I also understand that you can use MorphOS PowerUP and install it onto the flashroom of the Deneb thus being able to directly boot MorphOS PowerUP. Are any reboots required prior to booting and how is the performance? Are there instructions available for installing MorphOS onto the flashrom? I did not see any on the product's website. Are you using DMA mode?

3) In general, for those of you who have the device, how is it? Is it stable? Are you using DMA or PIO mode? Are you happy with PIO mode? Are you happy with USB Audio performance - does it work nicely while playing back MP3's? Similarily with networking - is it reliable and how is the CPU Usage?

4) Do you know if software updates to support DMA operation in OS4 are planned?

I know this is alot of questions, but before I go ahead and purchase the device it would be nice to have some feedback from current users.

Thanks :)
AmigaOS 4.x Beta Tester - Classic Amiga enthusiast - http://www.hd-zone.com is my Amiga Blog, check it out!
 

Offline Darrin

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Re: Deneb USB questions
« Reply #1 on: August 26, 2008, 08:49:38 PM »
I can't answer 90% of your questions, as I'm using my Deneb on an A4000 with OS3.9, but I wouldn't sell my Deneb card for the world.

I've installed the latest BIOS update (a simple matter of downloading a file and following the instrcutions) and it works in perfect harmony with my Cybervision 64/3D and FastATA4000.

I keep a USB Ethernet device plugged into the internal port at all times to put my Amiga online, I have a USB to PATA/SATA cable for hooking up stock 3.5" and 2.5" drives directly, I have a USB PC floppy drive (doesn't do Amiga formatted disks, but I have an internal HDFDD for that) and a bunch of memory stick that I use.

I had been fiddling with a USB to SCSI device before I left home, but I haven't finished testing that yet.

Using it is easy.  Once you have Poseidon installed you can access it through the Trident interface in Prefs.  Everything mounts automatically:  Just plug in that USB cable and a Poseidon window pops up to tell you what it has detected.  Unplug the device and another window pops up to wave it goodbye.  The USB stack even updates itself over your internet link.  Brilliant!
A2000, A3000, 2 x A1200T, A1200, A4000Tower & Mediator, CD32, VIC-20, C64, C128, C128D, PET 8032, Minimig & ARM, C-One, FPGA Arcade... and AmigaOne X1000.
 

Offline bash64

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Re: Deneb USB questions
« Reply #2 on: August 26, 2008, 11:28:08 PM »
Personally:

Using usb mass storage devices to boot off of - so so.

Ethernet - perfect 100%.

Sound - better buy a sound blaster external with its own power supply. No cheap usb dongles from ebay.

Accessing FAT thumbdrives - perfect.

Accessing large usb drives (ide/sata) - find a better filesystem than the fastfilesystem, it is too slow. PFS3 would do.

usb burners - yes, with frying pan. you must buy the full version. the demo is limited.

Scanners - did not try.

Wireless keyboard and mouse - much more comfortable than using the amiga combo.



 

Offline platon42

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Re: Deneb USB questions
« Reply #3 on: August 27, 2008, 12:07:25 AM »
That's a pretty long list and I probably should be in bed right now...

1) Yes, the Deneb will at least run in PIO mode. If you deactivate other busmasters (e.g. the SCSI controller), you normally can also operate it in DMA mode. If you encounter freezes or crashes with the DMA driver, you should fall back to PIO mode.

The PIO mode will suck as much CPU time that is available and necessary to read data from or write data to the USB medium. So given you want to copy data from a fast source (e.g. memory) to a USB stick which can handle that speed, you probably will end up with >90% CPU usage.

Regarding USB audio, the usage is probably less than 5%, not including audio mixing and processing (mp3 decoding) that is done by AHI for any kind of soundcard.

For networking, it largely depends on the TCP/IP stack, which usually is the CPU bottleneck -- no different than other Zorro based ethernet cards, except for Zorro III bus access being a lot faster than the available Zorro II boards and 100MBit/s having less latency than the 10MBit/s cards.

As for the DMA mode not being available under OS4: The OS4 new memory model needs hardware to support scatter/gather rather than linear addressing. The current Deneb firmware does not support this right now. While it is possible to add a software workaround for this (with moderate efforts), smaller DMA blocks and more calls to CachePreDMA() and CachePostDMA() would probably kill the effectiveness of the DMA routines for less than 1% of the users. Given this ratio, the PIO driver seems to be a legit fallback for OS4.

BTW: I don't consider the DMA driver to be broken under OS4. In fact, it will use DMA whenever linear memory transfers are encountered and only fall back to PIO automatically when scatter/gather would have been required. However, it needs correct implementations of CachePreDMA() and CachePostDMA(). Unfortunately, currently for unknown reasons the driver still seems to freeze the machine under OS4. It could be that this is due to a bug in the said routines in OS4 (which have been proven broken in earlier versions).

I think users of www.a1k.org/forum have done some benchmarking under OS4, maybe APeX has information about the CPU usage. I guess they should be more or less than same.

2) The Deneb flash can be used to directly boot into MorphOS without prior reboots. The instructions on how to install MorphOS into the flashrom are covered in the Luciferin manual (you can download the SW from my homepage).

As I don't have a Zorro III capable PPC machine (only an A1200PPC), I couldn't do any speed tests for DMA driven MorphOS. The PPC-native distribution of Poseidon for MorphOS Classic PUP is still pending. I hopefully will be able to provide it within this week.

3) As for reliability, probably other users should speak up. As for me, I'm using the Deneb (Zorro II after the breakdown of my A4000T) for at least keyboard, mass storage and networking for several months now and it hasn't failed me once.

4) Updates to the DMA engine (firmware) have been proposed, but due to the small number of users the massive changes necessary have not been considered for implementation yet. Indeed, if CachePreDMA() and CachePostDMA() are still broken in OS4, changes of the DMA engine would be moot.

Phew. I hope this answers your questions :)
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Offline HammerDTopic starter

Re: Deneb USB questions
« Reply #4 on: August 27, 2008, 05:10:03 AM »
@platon42

Hi, thanks for the detailed answers. It seems everyone really likes the Deneb hardware/software.

  I mainly was worried that it would not work at all in the A4000T, or hog the cpu if in PIO mode.  I probably would want to use it in my A4000T for usb networking, I am short a zorro NIC and don't really want to spend just as much on that when I can get a more versatile device like the Deneb.  In fact I may get two of them, or at least one to start to see how well it works.

I think the price is reasonable for all of the functionality that is built into it, the 4MB flashrom, poseidon usb stack, booting morphos, ability to store kickstart rom images (can it also store the OS4 kickstart directory and boot os4?).

I just hope they stay in stock a little bit longer, have to wait a bit before I can afford it at the moment :)  

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Offline platon42

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Re: Deneb USB questions
« Reply #5 on: August 27, 2008, 11:02:07 AM »
Quote

HammerD wrote:

I mainly was worried that it would not work at all in the A4000T, or hog the cpu if in PIO mode.


It won't use CPU time when not used regardless of DMA or PIO mode and it doesn't require /more/ CPU time for networking as a Zorro card would. The next version also includes a driver for another ethernet chipset (DM9601). These dongles are available at about 4-5 EUR.

Quote

(can it also store the OS4 kickstart directory and boot os4?).


As the flashrom is no filesystem (at boot time, there is no DOS functionality available), somebody with OS4 would have to write a loader that reads the files from flashrom instead from disk using the flashrom.resource, like I did with the FlashMOSStartup program. That's not too complicated, but somebody has to do it. Sizewise, I am confident that the OS4 bootrom files would fit inside the flashrom.
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Offline kreciu

Re: Deneb USB questions
« Reply #6 on: August 28, 2008, 06:16:07 PM »
Can I use Deneb USB with A1200 and Zorro II/III (yes, with A3000 "turbo"), what about "this" DMA in this case?

Thank you!
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Offline countzero

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Re: Deneb USB questions
« Reply #7 on: August 28, 2008, 06:18:13 PM »
do you have a buster on your a1200 zorro board ?
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Offline mboehmer_e3b

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Re: Deneb USB questions
« Reply #8 on: August 28, 2008, 07:33:40 PM »
Quote

Can I use Deneb USB with A1200 and Zorro II/III (yes, with A3000 "turbo"), what about "this" DMA in this case?


Which busboard do you have in your setup?
Please state the exact name, or better a link to one of the Amiga hardware resources in the net.

This information is mandatory to answer your question correctly.

Michael