NatAmi 68070 design draft

[Zac67]

@Kin-Hell
Oh boy - I was talking about 68k-ish RISC. :roll: (or rather RISC-ish 68k)

Of course RISC predates Coldfire - but e.g. ARM predates PowerPC by nearly a decade, not to mention MIPS.

[redrumloa]

Seems like quite a hurdle, I hope it comes to pass.

For the record I think a classic Amiga replacement board like NatAmi would be awesome!

[B00tDisk]

Atheist wrote:

*snip*

You don't even know what video card was in your A1; I hardly think your thoughts on how Windows works or what features an OS "needs" are salient, here.

[tiffers]

@vloodline

The MiniMig was good in the Amiga Market, it was a cheap, simple design and generally compatible with most existing software.

The NATAMI is looking to be expensive and incompatible with features that are not required by the amiga software base.... How do you sell this to an investor?

How do you figure this? Sure the prototype, and the planned developer boards will be using a FPGA based board which are expensive for the features they offer.

However, they are investigating the coldfire option in order to lower that price barrier. Once they started looking at coldfire, and incompatabilities in the instruction set, they started looking into ways to work around those incompatabilities. First they suggested a .library file, or modifying code (hard to do when you don't have the source)

Next they discovered that they could get their SuperAGA FPGA stuff programmed into the Coldfire package, giving a low-cost ($20 / 'chip' was a price quoted) solution, which would result in a very affordable ($100 for a working board) product. Of course then someone said, it'd be cool if you could stick a 68k into the FPGA code, then you wouldn't have to bother with coldfire issues. This is where the 68070 effort began.

Now, how do-able this is, I don't know. But if they could get a $20 SuperAGA + 680x0 on Coldfire solution done, and licence it out to whoever wanted to build a board to go with it, how many do you think would sell at $100 / board?

The NatAmi team is claiming 100% AGA compability (not including timing) so they say just about anything you care for (maybe not demos) should run as normal on it. Then they're extending it to have a larger CHIP RAM address space, and that chip ram is SRAM not DRAM, so it's much faster, allowing them to run an extended instruction set in their SuperAGA 'chipset' to give better audio, better CG (including 3D) and other features, while remaining 100% compatible.


So it's compatible, faster, more featured, and planned on being very affordable. How many people out there do you think would get one? How many people bought C64DTVs?

I know I'll get a NatAmi if they can attain these goals.

tiffers

[Britelite]

tiffers wrote:
So it's compatible, faster, more featured, and planned on being very affordable. How many people out there do you think would get one? How many people bought C64DTVs?

C64DTV's were sold for something like $20 as full product, with 20-30 games included. I bet a similar amiga-in-a-joystick would sell like hotcakes with a similar price. But somehow I doubt the Natami can reach that price. And a $100 bare board, even if cheap by amiga standards, isn't nearly as tempting as a fully working product and wouldn't get the masses to buy one.

[Crumb]

If it was possible to erase from the "configurable" coldfire the incompatible instructions it would be useful. If that can't be done then custom coldfire will be mostly useless

[amigaksi]

>My computer of 2.26 GHz P IV with 1 Gig ram stalls (~3 seconds) when opening a 2 to 4 meg ASCII file!!!!!!!!!

Are you sure that's not Vista?  XP with 1 GB RAM should be pretty fast at 2.26Ghz CPU speed.  Perhaps, you need to try installing Windows '98SE or Windows 3.1 or DOS.  That ought to  speed things up quite a bit from XP (if you have the drivers for the hardware in your machine).  Else try upgrading to multiprocessor based machine and use single-processor versions of anti-viruses/anti-spywares.  

[amigaksi]

>>    wolfchild wrote:
>>    Whenever Natami is mentioned, it seems inevitable that the project team members will eventually be ridiculed.

>In order for them to be ridiculed, first they must write something ridiculous surely?

Not really, some people like Galileo, Newton, etc. got ridiculed although they were right.  Some people have more experience/knowledge of specific subjects than others and if it does not fit into the "norm" of what everyone else does/follows, it makes others ridicule them.  Although, most people picked the slower-processor based Amiga at 7.16Mhz over the Atari ST (@8Mhz), that was a good choice in the 80s.  Now if you use an Amiga over a 4Ghz PC, it's not the "norm" since only the processor speed counts in most people's minds.

[alexh]

tiffers wrote:
Next they discovered that they could get their SuperAGA FPGA stuff programmed into the Coldfire package, giving a low-cost ($20 / 'chip' was a price quoted) solution

*Cough* bullsh!t

How much was the design services going to cost(NRE)?
What was the minimum order quantity(MOQ)?

Either you are re-telling the story incorrectly... or someone is telling porkies.

I can imagine they discovered that you can use a synthesisable (Soft) Coldfire alongside your design in a regular Altera cyclone III FPGA. (but $20 sounds too cheap. The Coldfire alone requires at least 5000LE's)

Perhaps there is already an FPGA which has a Coldfire hard macro in the corner (there are a lot with PowerPC's in the corner)?

tiffers wrote:
How many people bought C64DTVs?

A lot less than were supposed to in the UK judging by the fact they were discounted down to just £2 in ARGOS!

[bloodline]

tiffers wrote:
@vloodline

The MiniMig was good in the Amiga Market, it was a cheap, simple design and generally compatible with most existing software.

The NATAMI is looking to be expensive and incompatible with features that are not required by the amiga software base.... How do you sell this to an investor?

How do you figure this?

From my understanding of technology and the available documentation regarding the NATAMI.

Sure the prototype, and the planned developer boards will be using a FPGA based board which are expensive for the features they offer.

I dissagree, an FPGA developer board is great value for money... for the hobby market, which is the market we are currently in.

However, they are investigating the coldfire option in order to lower that price barrier. Once they started looking at coldfire, and incompatabilities in the instruction set, they started looking into ways to work around those incompatabilities.

The Coldfire really isn't looking attractive...

First they suggested a .library file, or modifying code (hard to do when you don't have the source)

:-? :-? :-?

Next they discovered that they could get their SuperAGA FPGA stuff programmed into the Coldfire package, giving a low-cost ($20 / 'chip' was a price quoted) solution, which would result in a very affordable ($100 for a working board) product.

You what? $20 FPGA + a Coldfire... you have to be dreaming!?!?!

Of course then someone said, it'd be cool if you could stick a 68k into the FPGA code, then you wouldn't have to bother with coldfire issues. This is where the 68070 effort began.

I like the idea of having the 68k and the chipset on a single FPGA. I think it's agreat idea, perfect for the MiniMIG etc... But I get very annoyed when I see these crazy threads about creating a "Super68k"... IMO we should be happy to get something that is compatible with as of similar performance to the 68030... if possible, into a small enough design that can share silicon with the Chipset.

Now, how do-able this is, I don't know.
But if they could get a $20 SuperAGA + 680x0 on Coldfire solution done, and licence it out to whoever wanted to build a board to go with it, how many do you think would sell at $100 / board?

5 (with a +-2 margin of error).

The NatAmi team is claiming 100% AGA compability (not including timing)

Timing is EVERYTHING with the Amiga chipset! Listen to Jens talking about the CloneA, as soon as you are not cycle exact, you are not compatible... If you are not 100% compatible, then there is NO point using an Amiga chipset... Just use a modern one that works better.

so they say just about anything you care for (maybe not demos) should run as normal on it.

If it's not cycle exact, then only thing that might work is the OS... and anything that uses the OS in a system legal way... If that is the case, then why bother with the "Amiga Style" GFX chips?

Then they're extending it to have a larger CHIP RAM address space

Increase the Chipram, and you become incompatible...

 and that chip ram is SRAM not DRAM, so it's much faster, allowing them to run an extended instruction set in their SuperAGA 'chipset' to give better audio, better CG (including 3D) and other features, while remaining 100% compatible.

SRAM or DRAM... make no difference for something as slow as the Amiga Graphics architecture... DRAM chips are easily as fast (if not much faster) as requried. SRAM chips are just easier to interface with, thoguh quite a bit more expensive!

So it's compatible,

No it's not. I know you don't beleive me... But you have to believe Jens from Individual computers?!?!

faster,

Faster? Fast than what? A 16 year old graphics chipset... I could buy a gfx chip off the shelf for $2 that would be faster and offer more features than NATAMI...

[/quote]
 more featured,
[/quote]

More features than a 16year old chipset? See above!

and planned on being very affordable.

I plan on Dating a German supermodel with a degree in quantum mechanics... can you see where I'm going with this?

How many people out there do you think would get one? How many people bought C64DTVs?

I don't know... they were heavily discounted here (to somthing like £5) and I still didn't bother buying one... And no more were or are planned to be made... I guess it wasn't that popular...

I know I'll get a NatAmi if they can attain these goals.

If I meet that German supermodel with more than a passing interest in theoretical physics... I'll think about letting her go out with me...

[bloodline]

amigaksi wrote:
>>    wolfchild wrote:
>>    Whenever Natami is mentioned, it seems inevitable that the project team members will eventually be ridiculed.

>In order for them to be ridiculed, first they must write something ridiculous surely?

Not really, some people like Galileo

Galileo was not ridiculed... he was persecuted by the Church, an organisation with hardly a good reputation regarding scientific matters...

, Newton, etc.

Newton was a highly respected scientist... never ridiculed... Do you even know history?

got ridiculed although they were right.  Some people have more experience/knowledge of specific subjects than others and if it does not fit into the "norm" of what everyone else does/follows, it makes others ridicule them.

Err... no... we don't live in the middle ages... we have the scientific method. If you suggest something and are able to back it up with evidence, repeatable results and testable observations, people will test and except your results.

 Although, most people picked the slower-processor based Amiga at 7.16Mhz over the Atari ST (@8Mhz), that was a good choice in the 80s.  

I doubt even 1% of the people who bought computers in the 80s even know what speed their CPU was... or even that CPUs had speed ratings.

You bought the computer that had the most software, or the one that had the better software...

Now if you use an Amiga over a 4Ghz PC, it's not the "norm" since only the processor speed counts in most people's minds.

If you use an Amiga over a 4Ghz PC (does anyone have a 4Ghz PC?!?!), then you don't need the modern features that modern hardware and software can provide.

I can no longer use my Amiga as either my work machine... my hobby machine or even my everyday machine...

[wawrzon]

bloodline, you are overly negative, just as biggun is too enthusiastic over the matter. look at this thread, some 50% of it are your posts, trying to convince people that something is impossible, i thing u could easily use this energy in some more constructive way. i believe, most people involved in amiga scene have got a clou about natami, but just keep quiet as long as anything is proven either way (at least me do).

as for selling rates of a complete amiga compatible system for  any 100eur not to mention 100$ (lol) it would surely exceed 10 pieces. just notice how much you pay for any old amiga hardware today. and dont mention minimig should have been a bigger succes as nobody sane actually needs replacement for original a500 i believe. well i have no need at least.

as for jens schoenfeld arguments, do not forget that he is working on a concurent design. the amiga-hardware designers scene here in germany and poland (e3b, elbox, ic) seems to takes no risks by supporting each other products, due to the little market i believe.
j.s. always underlines that clone_a would be cycle exact replacement for the amiga, but is an a4k (with a cyberstorm060/ppc) cycle exact with a a500? if it is probably natami aga chipset replacement is compatible too since there it was shown to public and there are snapshots of it running genuine amiga apps on the natami page.

[alexh]

wawrzon wrote:
is an a4k (with a cyberstorm060/ppc) cycle exact with a a500?

As cycle accurate as AGA can be to ECS/OCS. Certainly a lot better than MiniMig for example.

wawrzon wrote:
if it is probably natami aga chipset replacement is compatible too since there it was shown to public and there are snapshots of it running genuine amiga apps on the natami page.

While intended to be compatible, it will suffer from just as many problems as MiniMig (if not more) and will take a long time to debug. Mainly because of all the subtleties in the chipset that were never written down (AGA is worse because there was no HRM). But they'll get there. The FPGA development kit will allow for quick bug fixes.

[motorollin]

wawrzon wrote:
as for selling rates of a complete amiga compatible system for  any 100eur not to mention 100$ (lol) it would surely exceed 10 pieces.

With sales projections like that, I don't know what the developers are waiting for!

--
moto

[wawrzon]

@alexh: i dont mind taking part in debugging such a system if i could contribute in any way. honestly i would even buy a dev board for multiple of 100$ eventhough im not a progger. i paid lately 700eur for an a4k equipped with a csppc, and i do not regret. i think there are some more people like that if even a guide to build-it-yourself-ng-a1k-board is getting enough attention.

[niklasni1]

wawrzon wrote:
bloodline, you are overly negative,

Not surprising considering the absurd claims you see from some people... especially people who seem to not have a clue (Atheist, amongst others)

There are some real gems on the Natami forums:

Intel recently said that the future of GPUs will be ray-tracing and Nvidia said that such claims are ridiculous. From what I read NATAMI , comes out of nowhere with a home-grown designed CPU and GPU, is supposed to be capable of ray-tracing Quake 3 @ 800x600/truecolor @ 30fps!

I fully support the Natami project, and I might even buy one if I find myself with the cash handy. If they get it working it'll be an incredible feat, and it'll be cool no matter how its benchmarks compare to a new PC... but these claims that it will be the fastest computer ever and cost 100 inflation-wrecked American dollars... you don't really know whether to laugh or start smashing skulls.