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Author Topic: Amiga's place in the modern computing world - 00s  (Read 17604 times)

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Offline AJCopland

Re: Amiga's place in the modern computing world - 00s
« Reply #44 on: June 09, 2008, 05:17:35 PM »
Quote

koaftder wrote:
Thank god she's not furry.

 :lol: so damned true :-D
Be Positive towards the Amiga community!
 

Offline Sig999

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Re: Amiga's place in the modern computing world - 00s
« Reply #45 on: June 09, 2008, 05:27:08 PM »
As far as I'm concerned - place in the modern computing world. Doesn't really have one.

This is not a bad thing - Discs of Tron doesn't really have a place in the modern gaming world, but I still think it's one of the coolest arcade games of all time, so much so that my 'winter project' is building a full sized replica environmental cabinet to play it.

No place in the modern aviation world for the Sopwith Camel or the SE5a, but they're still my favorite planes of all time - and doesn't stop me enjoying my 'summer project' of building scale versions of them to fly around.

The Amiga doesn't fit into my modern world of computing at all - but it's not a bad thing. When I've had my fill of the modern world and it's modern computers in my modern job I like booting it up, tinker with it, play some old school games, write a few pages of code, and think of happier - less stressful times.

 

Offline AeroMan

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Re: Amiga's place in the modern computing world - 00s
« Reply #46 on: June 09, 2008, 05:35:09 PM »
Quote


Amiga = smelly homeless guy looking in bins for things the rest of the industy discarded years ago...


[/quote]

Ummm...

Amiga = Old man with old sunglasses driving a 57 Chevy with fluffy dice.

        Old man, old stuff, old performance, but:

        - He thinks he is cool
        - It still looks cool
        - He doesn´t give a cr** about what other people thinks about it
        - The car will still be running nice in the next 20 years
        - It will still be a classic in 20 years (who would care for a Corolla ?)
        - Lots of people would say "I wish I had one of these..."

         :-D  :-D  :-D
 

Offline persia

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Re: Amiga's place in the modern computing world - 00s
« Reply #47 on: June 09, 2008, 07:20:35 PM »
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

What we\'re witnessing is the sad, lonely crowing of that last, doomed cock.
 

Offline alexh

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Re: Amiga's place in the modern computing world - 00s
« Reply #48 on: June 09, 2008, 08:00:52 PM »
Quote

bloodline wrote:
Expensive (compared to USB);

Hmmm, dont think so... wires vs USB device controller + embedded CPU + flash/ROM + software?? I think USB is more expensive (in the joystick). But everything else you mentioned more than makes up for the expense.

Quote

bloodline wrote:
I can't think of anything about the Amiga that isn't obsolete

Keyboard? Hasn't changed much in 30 years.
 

Offline bloodline

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Re: Amiga's place in the modern computing world - 00s
« Reply #49 on: June 09, 2008, 08:08:46 PM »
Quote

alexh wrote:
Quote

bloodline wrote:
Expensive (compared to USB);

Hmmm, dont think so... wires vs USB device controller + embedded CPU + flash/ROM + software?? I think USB is more expensive (in the joystick). But everything else you mentioned more than makes up for the expense.


I was thinking more from a physical connector POV... since the USB support architecture could easily be implemented via any Serial interface...

Quote

Quote

bloodline wrote:
I can't think of anything about the Amiga that isn't obsolete

Keyboard? Hasn't changed much in 30 years.


Hmmm, true! Also the mouse... though it's not optical so yes, it's also obsolete :-)

Offline Raffaele

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Re: Amiga's place in the modern computing world - 00s
« Reply #50 on: June 09, 2008, 08:42:59 PM »
Quote

bloodline wrote:

Quote

bloodline wrote:
I can't think of anything about the Amiga that isn't obsolete


Quote
Keyboard? Hasn't changed much in 30 years.


Hmmm, true! Also the mouse... though it's not optical so yes, it's also obsolete :-)


WTF?

Mouse it is accessory. You can buy cheap optical and/or laser mouses and it works flawlessly even on Amiga...

(Mouse adapter needed on required motherboards)
Que viva el Amiga!
Long Life the Amiga!
Vive l\'Amiga!
Viva Amiga!
 

Offline alexh

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Re: Amiga's place in the modern computing world - 00s
« Reply #51 on: June 09, 2008, 08:44:44 PM »
Quote

bloodline wrote:
though it's not optical so yes, it's also obsolete :-)

The perfect example. Optical mice, first invented in the early 80's became obsolete for many years many years. You'd be amazed what can make a comeback.
 

Offline bloodline

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Re: Amiga's place in the modern computing world - 00s
« Reply #52 on: June 09, 2008, 08:46:42 PM »
Quote

alexh wrote:
Quote

bloodline wrote:
though it's not optical so yes, it's also obsolete :-)

The perfect example. Optical mice, first invented in the early 80's became obsolete for many years many years. You'd be amazed what can make a comeback.


Yeah, but they were a totally different technology! The 80's optical mouse needed special grid mouse mats etc... that technology is obsolete :-)

Offline uncharted

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Re: Amiga's place in the modern computing world - 00s
« Reply #53 on: June 09, 2008, 09:06:51 PM »
Quote

bloodline wrote:

Amiga = smelly homeless guy looking in bins for things the rest of the industy discarded years ago...


How would you describe AROS then?
 

Offline bloodline

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Re: Amiga's place in the modern computing world - 00s
« Reply #54 on: June 09, 2008, 09:12:37 PM »
Quote

uncharted wrote:
Quote

bloodline wrote:

Amiga = smelly homeless guy looking in bins for things the rest of the industy discarded years ago...


How would you describe AROS then?


His younger brother, with a low paid job... a wife and two kids, living on a council estate... struggling to make ends meet, and surviving on benefits :-D

Offline amigaksi

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Re: Amiga's place in the modern computing world - 00s
« Reply #55 on: June 09, 2008, 09:20:56 PM »
>Did you even read the posts before mine?

Yes, but looks like you missed a lot of posts where this topic of uniqueness of amiga was discussed elsewhere.

>It's not wrong... The Amiga is Homeless, no parent company to look after it, it's got no job and can't be found in shops, and smelly as it's had nothing new in years.

If you want to define it that way.  But it has technology that is unique.

>The number of weird threads that want some old PPC chip, or desparatly clamouring after various old technologies... is perfectly sums up by "Looking in bins...etc".

That's not looking in the bins.  If you can get away with a simpler design for the purpose at hand, there's no need to get a 4Ghz processor.

>>    We agree on that point. To add more details to this, you should rethink that what "industry discards" does not necessarily mean it's bad or obsolete.

>Yeah, it does. It means both. Industry will cling on to technology long after it has reached the end of its design life if it is either good or useful.

You are not in touch with reality here.  Industry makes it's decisions mainly on sales and marketing and whether it fits the target machine.  In the Atari ST, they left out the blitter chip, RF modulator, stereo PCM sound, etc. until later on in their STE series.

>What advantage does a custom DE9/DB9 have over something like USB?

You are comparing a serial device with a parallel one, since the comparable would be a game port or parallel port, but let's take it up for the sake of argument:

>The DE9/DB9 is:
>Bulky;

If you need parallel lines of communication, it's not that bulky.  USB requires examining a bitstream whereas a joystick port, you can read with one instruction.  

>Subject to ESD/EMI noise;

I have done full throttle on the Atari joystick port without any noise.  In fact, I was able to read the data on some machines even without the ground pin attached.  If you target a faster machine, you can also update the circuit for the joystick port yet keep it pin-compatible like they did with PCI version of parallel ports.

>Can't be hot swapped;

MPDOS allows hot-swapping of joystick ports on Atari/Amiga.  It's a software issue.

>Prone to pin breakage;

That's a lame excuse as if they stopped using pins.  I have many usb cables that when bent around the connector or come under a chair lose their connectivity.

>Unable to carry hi-speed data;

I already explained that above.

>Expensive (compared to USB);

Serial port connectors are the same as DB9 connectors and cost next to nothing.

>Require complex attachement to motherboards, 9pins vs 4pins(for USB);

You don't get it.  You can simulate multiple serial devices with one joystick port not the other way around without slowing down the interface.

>Too big for use on mobile devices... really I could go on...

>Do you still want your DE9/DB9 connector?

Ever heard of ISA parallel port being updated to PCI?

>No, I would have stated that it was my opinion if it was my opinion.

Since what you stated is not fact, it must be your opinion.

>I can't think of anything about the Amiga that isn't obsolete, but that is just my opinion, I've not done formal study

That's the problem, you have to know both machines before you compare them else you are just expressing your opinion.    Timers was already discussed, overscan mode, simpler real-time analysis, etc. etc.  I can also go on.
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Offline bloodline

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Re: Amiga's place in the modern computing world - 00s
« Reply #56 on: June 09, 2008, 09:54:28 PM »
Quote

amigaksi wrote:
>Did you even read the posts before mine?

Yes, but looks like you missed a lot of posts where this topic of uniqueness of amiga was discussed elsewhere.


???

Quote

>It's not wrong... The Amiga is Homeless, no parent company to look after it, it's got no job and can't be found in shops, and smelly as it's had nothing new in years.

If you want to define it that way.  But it has technology that is unique.


Um... The Amiga is a unique combination of technologies that directly address the computing requirements of the 80's... computing requirements are very different now.

For me the most unique part of the system is the OS... totally unlike any other  OS in use now... fundamentally flawed for modern computing needs, but but beautifully elegant design none the less.

Quote

>The number of weird threads that want some old PPC chip, or desparatly clamouring after various old technologies... is perfectly sums up by "Looking in bins...etc".

That's not looking in the bins.  If you can get away with a simpler design for the purpose at hand, there's no need to get a 4Ghz processor.


Sure, my main machine is a 2.33Ghz Dual Core... that just about meets my current needs... though Logic 8 is demanding more CPU power :-(

Quote

>>    We agree on that point. To add more details to this, you should rethink that what "industry discards" does not necessarily mean it's bad or obsolete.

>Yeah, it does. It means both. Industry will cling on to technology long after it has reached the end of its design life if it is either good or useful.

You are not in touch with reality here.


Are you sure of that? I suspect most people here would disagree...

Quote

  Industry makes it's decisions mainly on sales and marketing and whether it fits the target machine.  In the Atari ST, they left out the blitter chip, RF modulator, stereo PCM sound, etc. until later on in their STE series.


??? Is this an example of the Chewbacca Defense (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chewbacca_defense)

The Industry is everyone, not some old dead company 25 years ago... Look at technologies that have clung on despite being superseded... M$ have built their fortune upon it.

Quote

>What advantage does a custom DE9/DB9 have over something like USB?

You are comparing a serial device with a parallel one, since the comparable would be a game port or parallel port, but let's take it up for the sake of argument:


The physical operation of the device is irrelevant... The function is what is important. There is no functional difference between parallel and serial connections, the only difference is their operation.

Quote

>The DE9/DB9 is:
>Bulky;

If you need parallel lines of communication, it's not that bulky.  USB requires examining a bitstream whereas a joystick port, you can read with one instruction.  


No one needs parallel links anymore, LVDS has pushed serial links far faster than an parallel could ever operate. It's now easier and cheaper to multiplex on a serial line than deal with skew, noise and capacitance on a parallel line.

No modern interface uses parallel anymore, everything is serial.

Quote

>Subject to ESD/EMI noise;

I have done full throttle on the Atari joystick port without any noise.  In fact, I was able to read the data on some machines even without the ground pin attached.  If you target a faster machine, you can also update the circuit for the joystick port yet keep it pin-compatible like they did with PCI version of parallel ports.


??? I can't even parse this...

Quote

>Can't be hot swapped;

MPDOS allows hot-swapping of joystick ports on Atari/Amiga.  It's a software issue.


No, hot-swapping requires that the ground lines connect before any other line... USB (for example) has this defined as part of it's standard. If any other line connects first as can happen with DE9/DB9... the potential difference could fry the support IC.

Quote

>Prone to pin breakage;

That's a lame excuse as if they stopped using pins.  I have many usb cables that when bent around the connector or come under a chair lose their connectivity.


I've bent pins on DB connectors due to repeated insertions... USB (for example) was design for many many many more insertions/disconnections than any DB connector...

Quote


>Unable to carry hi-speed data;

I already explained that above.


You explained nothing... the DB connectors are not designed for hi-speed links, full stop!

Quote

>Expensive (compared to USB);

Serial port connectors are the same as DB9 connectors and cost next to nothing.


Regardless, the connectors are more expensive than USB (for example).

Quote

>Require complex attachement to motherboards, 9pins vs 4pins(for USB);

You don't get it.  You can simulate multiple serial devices with one joystick port not the other way around without slowing down the interface.


??? Soldering the 9pins of the DB9 is more complex/expensive than the 4 pins of the USB (for example).

Quote

>Too big for use on mobile devices... really I could go on...

>Do you still want your DE9/DB9 connector?

Ever heard of ISA parallel port being updated to PCI?


???

Quote

>No, I would have stated that it was my opinion if it was my opinion.

Since what you stated is not fact, it must be your opinion.


Any research on the subject would suggest I'm right, and you are not.

Quote

>I can't think of anything about the Amiga that isn't obsolete, but that is just my opinion, I've not done formal study

That's the problem, you have to know both machines before you compare them else you are just expressing your opinion.  


Both? What two machines?  I am really quite knowledgeable on technology subjects, I am very happy for it to be put to the test.

Quote

 Timers was already discussed, overscan mode, simpler real-time analysis, etc. etc.  I can also go on.


Timers... The amiga timers are nothing compared to what is available on a modern PC... What on earth does overscan have to do with anything? Any GFX card can display to the edge of my displays (which are LCD).

You seem to be lacking knowledge of modern hardware.

Offline amigaksi

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Re: Amiga's place in the modern computing world - 00s
« Reply #57 on: June 09, 2008, 10:22:15 PM »
>Sure, my main machine is a 2.33Ghz Dual Core... that just about meets my current needs... though Logic 8 is demanding more CPU power


>??? Is this an example of the Chewbacca Defense (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chewbacca_defense)
...

You did not even address the point but are being incoherent.  You can't point out an advantage that USB can be used on mobile devices if your machine is 2.33Ghz dual core desktop.  You have to stick to comparing one computer with another not all the modern technologies with the Amiga.  

>The physical operation of the device is irrelevant... The function is what is important. There is no functional difference between parallel and serial connections, the only difference is their operation.

How many serial connections can you put on 4 parallel lines?  What's faster:  In AL,DX or examining a serial bus with all it's commands?

>No one needs parallel links anymore, LVDS has pushed serial links far faster than an parallel could ever operate. It's now easier and cheaper to multiplex on a serial line than deal with skew, noise and capacitance on a parallel line.

You can also run parallel lines at the same speed as serial lines.

>No modern interface uses parallel anymore, everything is serial.

You need to be sure before you make that claim.

>>    MPDOS allows hot-swapping of joystick ports on Atari/Amiga. It's a software issue.

>No, hot-swapping requires that the ground lines connect before any other line... USB (for example) has this defined as part of it's standard. If any other line connects first as can happen with DE9/DB9... the potential difference could fry the support IC.

Why don't you try it out before you speak?  It works without frying any ICs.

>I've bent pins on DB connectors due to repeated insertions... USB (for example) was design for many many many more insertions/disconnections than any DB connector...

I have never bent any pins when inserting a joystick -- been using for 20+ years.

>> I already explained that above.

>You explained nothing... the DB connectors are not designed for hi-speed links, full stop!

Because when your emotions override your rationality, you see nothing but negative.

>Regardless, the connectors are more expensive than USB (for example).

I disagree, but even if you are right would not using millions of DB9s drop their price?  Oh, I forget, you don't think industry works that way.

>Any research on the subject would suggest I'm right, and you are not.

State your research then that shows that reading from a joystick port is slower than USB.  You already stated you have not done any study so why are you making an absolute claim?

>Both? What two machines? I am really quite knowledgeable on technology subjects, I am very happy for it to be put to the test.

Okay, what two machines do you want to compare?  Amiga vs pick-on and then we'll decide if it can do everything the amiga can.

>Timers... The amiga timers are nothing compared to what is available on a modern PC... What on earth does overscan have to do with anything? Any GFX card can display to the edge of my displays (which are LCD).

>You seem to be lacking knowledge of modern hardware.

That's calling "waving the hands" logic.  I don't buy that.  You can control what you put on overscan in NTSC output on the Amiga and Atari whereas you can't on PCs with standard hardware.  You need specialized cards to do it.  Timers are less accurate because modern PCs never saw the need to update them not because they are inferior technology.

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Offline bloodline

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Re: Amiga's place in the modern computing world - 00s
« Reply #58 on: June 09, 2008, 10:51:52 PM »
Quote

amigaksi wrote:
>Sure, my main machine is a 2.33Ghz Dual Core... that just about meets my current needs... though Logic 8 is demanding more CPU power


>??? Is this an example of the Chewbacca Defense (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chewbacca_defense)
...

You did not even address the point but are being incoherent.  


Well I hope so, I've been drinking heavily for the whole evening!

Quote

You can't point out an advantage that USB can be used on mobile devices if your machine is 2.33Ghz dual core desktop.  You have to stick to comparing one computer with another not all the modern technologies with the Amiga.  


You suggested this with your original statement, that one does not need a 4Ghz machine... Actually, I wouldn't mind one... since the software I use demands more power... fortunately, the designers of my software use parallel processing quite effectively, so my Dual Core meets my needs.

Quote

>The physical operation of the device is irrelevant... The function is what is important. There is no functional difference between parallel and serial connections, the only difference is their operation.

How many serial connections can you put on 4 parallel lines?  What's faster:  In AL,DX or examining a serial bus with all it's commands?


None... what you are suggesting is 4 serial lines...  4 parallel lines would be 32 wires (if each parallel link as 8bit).

I used to use DigiDesign's Protools equipment, that used DB25 connectors for 20 parallel analogue audio lines on one  single connector... now everything I do is done via FireWire 400... I can send the same 20 audio signals as digital over a much longer distance and without the noise of analogue.

A single serial link has replaced 20 parallel lines.

Quote

>No one needs parallel links anymore, LVDS has pushed serial links far faster than an parallel could ever operate. It's now easier and cheaper to multiplex on a serial line than deal with skew, noise and capacitance on a parallel line.

You can also run parallel lines at the same speed as serial lines.


You can't... skew, capacitance and noise limit the maximum speed of a parallel link... Compare PCI-E (serial) vs PCI (parallel)

Quote

>No modern interface uses parallel anymore, everything is serial.

You need to be sure before you make that claim.


USB
Firewire
PCI-E
Hyper-Transport
Ethernet
SATA
ADAT
DVI
HDMI
(Even the old ADB...)
Can you think of any other modern interfaces?

Yeah, I'm pretty sure...

Quote

>>    MPDOS allows hot-swapping of joystick ports on Atari/Amiga. It's a software issue.

>No, hot-swapping requires that the ground lines connect before any other line... USB (for example) has this defined as part of it's standard. If any other line connects first as can happen with DE9/DB9... the potential difference could fry the support IC.

Why don't you try it out before you speak?  It works without frying any ICs.


I have been lucky... I have only ever fried one I/O port and that was a PS/2 port... I learned at that point, never to plug/unplug a connector not designed for hot-swap.

Quote

>I've bent pins on DB connectors due to repeated insertions... USB (for example) was design for many many many more insertions/disconnections than any DB connector...

I have never bent any pins when inserting a joystick -- been using for 20+ years.


Lucky you! I don't even want to think about the number of times I've bent P-ATA pins... Damn, I hate P-ATA.

Quote

>> I already explained that above.

>You explained nothing... the DB connectors are not designed for hi-speed links, full stop!

Because when your emotions override your rationality, you see nothing but negative.


I;ve never been called emotional before, many thanks... In fact my Ex-Girlfriend called me unemotional, so I'm glad you've proved her wrong :-)

Quote

>Regardless, the connectors are more expensive than USB (for example).

I disagree, but even if you are right would not using millions of DB9s drop their price?  Oh, I forget, you don't think industry works that way.


Economies of scale will of course come into play, but nothing takes away from the fact that DB9 is bigger and uses more components than USB (for example)

Quote

>Any research on the subject would suggest I'm right, and you are not.

State your research then that shows that reading from a joystick port is slower than USB.  You already stated you have not done any study so why are you making an absolute claim?


The burden of proof is not upon me... and I'm too drunk to care :-D

Quote

>Both? What two machines? I am really quite knowledgeable on technology subjects, I am very happy for it to be put to the test.

Okay, what two machines do you want to compare?  Amiga vs pick-on and then we'll decide if it can do everything the amiga can.


Ooh! A fight...nah, you choose, I don't mind. No, ok, I choose the Sinclair ZX81!!! Damn I love that machine!!!

Quote

>Timers... The amiga timers are nothing compared to what is available on a modern PC... What on earth does overscan have to do with anything? Any GFX card can display to the edge of my displays (which are LCD).

>You seem to be lacking knowledge of modern hardware.

That's calling "waving the hands" logic.  I don't buy that.  You can control what you put on overscan in NTSC output on the Amiga and Atari whereas you can't on PCs with standard hardware.  


You what? Overscan is an outdated concept... CRTs are well over 100 years old now... Can we please keep to the thread topic an stay in the 21st century...?

Quote

You need specialized cards to do it.  Timers are less accurate because modern PCs never saw the need to update them not because they are inferior technology.



I can easily define 2.4Mhz on my MBP... I doubt I could do the same on the amiga without a serious performance hit... hmmm... I think I would probably have to do some weird polling or something on the Amiga if at all...

Offline ZeBeeDee

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Re: Amiga's place in the modern computing world - 00s
« Reply #59 from previous page: June 09, 2008, 11:07:40 PM »
Please, no more of the "my computer can do this because it uses a dual-core CPU" la-de-da stuff ... It's rather boring  :-)

IMHO, it's up to the end user what place they give their miggy in today's world. On a more personal note, my miggy gets a large chunk of quality time as does my PC (when Vista decides to behave itself).
To err is human ... to BOING divine!

[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]