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Offline JetRacer

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Re: Coldfire AGAIN
« Reply #74 on: March 30, 2008, 02:36:24 AM »
If I recall correct, the 060 is 32-bit pure and hardware emulates <32-bit by simply stripping the communication since it would take more resources to do it "the right way" (and it wouldn't shave any cycles anyway). As others pointed out: modifying CF to do this is not a viable option. So (finally) my question is: will doing this with JIT have a notable impact on performance?

By "notable" I don't mean a reduction of a vanishing factor 4 in the scope of a x1400 or x140 gain.
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Offline bloodline

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Re: Coldfire AGAIN
« Reply #75 on: March 30, 2008, 02:42:45 AM »
Quote

JetRacer wrote:
If I recall correct, the 060 is 32-bit pure and hardware emulates <32-bit by simply stripping the communication since it would take more resources to do it "the right way" (and it wouldn't shave any cycles anyway). As others pointed out: modifying CF to do this is not a viable option. So (finally) my question is: will doing this with JIT have a notable impact on performance?

By "notable" I don't mean a reduction of a vanishing factor 4 in the scope of a x1400 or x140 gain.


A JIT shouldn't cause too much of a performance problem, it is the best solution really... the big question is if we are using a JIT, then why bother with a Coldfire, when you could use any CPU... a cheaper more powerful one...

Offline JetRacer

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Re: Coldfire AGAIN
« Reply #76 on: March 30, 2008, 04:56:52 AM »
A wild stab in the dark: because it needs to emulate everything all the time - as opposed to the CF who can use emu when it needs to?

But then again I don't know what I'm talking about when it comes to JIT and CF. -Less than the thread-average anyway.
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Offline biggun

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Re: Coldfire AGAIN
« Reply #77 on: March 30, 2008, 08:51:34 AM »
Quote

The amiga is a multitasking computer, so why not use 2 coldfires, running separate tasks, while one chip is trapping and emulating code, the other coldfire continues running it's task, hiding the speed penalty that emulation brings.


Running two "normal" applications on two Coldfire CPUs (like SMP) does not work.
For this cache coherency (bus snooping) is required.
The Coldfire does not do bus snooping.
The 68040 and 68060 were supporting bus snooping.
You could create great working multi processor systems out of 68040 and 68060 but not out of Coldfire.


Lets be clear here.

The Coldfire has some advantages:

1st)
Freescale has the Coldfire set up to work like LEGO.
You can easily put together parts, as you please.
If you look at the Freescale side you will see that there are dozens of different Coldfire CPUs put together.
This somewhat shows how simple it is to put new Coldfires together.

This LEGO feature is what makes the Coldfire interesting as the key for the AMIGA is to get something like SuperAGA into the Chip quickly.

Compared the classic AMIGAs the Coldfire is quite fast.
Yes, there are other higher clocked CPUs available but
the Coldfire V5 runs with 400 MHz and has about the same performance as a 68060 clocked with 400MHz.

So for a slim AMIGA OS system a 400 MHz Coldfire / 400Mhz 68060 does fly.

The only situation where you would want more Power is for something like Video encoding. As you might know the Coldfire has a MAC unit which is about something like ALTIVEC for the poor. The MAC Unit helps to accelerate stuff like FF transformations quite good.
So for tasks like Video encoding the Coldfire has more power than a 68060 400MHz would have.

Another option which will fit perfectly into the AMIGA spirit is putting a dedicated unit on this tasks. Freescale offers DSP cores which will be perfect for doing video encoding. Freescale could without any problem put SuperAGA, a 400Mhz Coldfire and a 400Mhz DSP into one chip.

The resulting chip will be relative small (read: cheap),
will be quick to produce, and it will be powerful enough to let AMIGA OS fly.

The DSP could be nicely integrated into AMIGA OS.
Think of it as a 2nd Copper aka a SuperCopper.
The DSP could be used to play video and audio Datatypes.

The SuperAGA chipset already includes DMA engines for stuff like YUV conversion. The idea to upgrade this with a powerfull SuperCopper that would be specialized for the heavy lifting needed for Video encoding, makes good sense.
We were thinking about designing our own mini-DSP for this - but as Freescale has powerful DSP cores in their LEGO toy box it might be clever to just take an existing DSP which has already a wealth of datatypes for audio and video developed for.


This is what makes sense to me.

Please mind the target is not to create a CPU which is faster than a 8-way Opteron or CELL.

The goal is to create a CPU which is not expensive, which runs passiv and which is fast enough to let AMIGA OS fly.

The big advantage of the AMIGA OS system is the elegant design and the resulting low memory and speed requirements of it.

There is a market for AMIGA OS for a small system.
You can think of it as a Amiga-Joystick, AMIGA smartphone or AMIGA-Wii.
There is no market for a Desktop system anymore.
The Desktop area is fully saturated with Windows,Apple and now even Linux.

If you want to build a new high end system take x86 and Linux.

I believe that the future (if any) for AMIGA OS is to power a sub $100 device.
And for this target market the Coldfire is a quite sensible choice.

AMIAG OS needs again something like a A500.
Low price but powerful for its size and price.

Offline bloodline

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Re: Coldfire AGAIN
« Reply #78 on: March 30, 2008, 05:30:58 PM »
@Biggun

I totally agree with your criteria for choosing the Coldfire in your last post, since you are not looking at it as a derivative of the 68k... but my argument revolves around the fact that we should be looking at all the available CPUs which can be licensed for use in the NatAmi project, and not just select the Coldfire because of it's history.

MIPS and ARM provide all the same services as Freescale, but with the advantage that both of those architectures are more widely used and better supported. Also, in the case of the MIPS, its implementations are tiny!

If the V4 and V5 versions do offer a very high degree of compatibility with the 68k and require only minimal work to support the existing Amiga software base, then and only then does the Coldfire have an advantage over the MIPS and ARM. Otherwise it's probably not the best choice, since the same amount of work would be required to get it to work regardless of the CPU architecture used.

Offline Karlos

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Re: Coldfire AGAIN
« Reply #79 on: March 30, 2008, 05:39:51 PM »
I know, let's use PowerPC...

*hides*
int p; // A
 

Offline bloodline

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Re: Coldfire AGAIN
« Reply #80 on: March 30, 2008, 05:43:22 PM »
Quote

Karlos wrote:
I know, let's use PowerPC...

*hides*


Actually, in this case... If it fit the criteria, I'd agree! :-D

Offline AeroMan

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Re: Coldfire AGAIN
« Reply #81 on: March 30, 2008, 05:52:55 PM »
Quote

biggun wrote:


There is a market for AMIGA OS for a small system.
You can think of it as a Amiga-Joystick, AMIGA smartphone or AMIGA-Wii.
There is no market for a Desktop system anymore.
The Desktop area is fully saturated with Windows,Apple and now even Linux.



I really loved this Idea, and I do agree with you, but I think it would be nice to "leave the doors open" to be possible to raise the system in the future up to a Desktop level (if it is possible).

I'm not an expert in Coldfire. Do you think it would be feasible to have in the future more than one CPU in the same board, in a cluster-like fashion? Maybe talking with each other with fast Ethernet or a serial bus?

I believe this fills the other side of the problem. Let's say, you can have a sub US$100 device, and the software for it could even run in a big multiprocessor box. One could add boards with multiple CPUs to speed up the machine.

Amiga OS is multitasking, so we could distribute new tasks to different CPUs and do software that launch many tasks.
It would take the advantage of multiple CPUs when they exist

It is just an idea...
 

Offline Karlos

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Re: Coldfire AGAIN
« Reply #82 on: March 30, 2008, 05:53:39 PM »
It has the advantage that it could run the PPC descendants of AmigaOS too...
int p; // A
 

Offline HenryCase

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Re: Coldfire AGAIN
« Reply #83 on: March 30, 2008, 06:38:18 PM »
Quote
AeroMan wrote:
I'm not an expert in Coldfire. Do you think it would be feasible to have in the future more than one CPU in the same board, in a cluster-like fashion?


The Natami board is supposed to have a CPU expansion slot.
http://www.natami.net/specification.htm
"CPU expansion slot
Allows upgrade to another CPU (Coldfire/PowerPC/Cell)
SLOT layout will be fully documented to allow 3rd party upgrade designs."
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Offline bloodline

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Re: Coldfire AGAIN
« Reply #84 on: March 30, 2008, 09:09:28 PM »
Quote

Karlos wrote:
It has the advantage that it could run the PPC descendants of AmigaOS too...


Hmmm, it does... perhaps an embedded PPC would be right for this application... no wait, Karlos, you are not going to get me to endorse the PPC! ;-)  :lol:

Offline AeroMan

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Re: Coldfire AGAIN
« Reply #85 on: March 30, 2008, 09:38:36 PM »
I do... :-D

But this thread made me look at Coldfire with a different vision...
 

Offline Einstein

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Re: Coldfire AGAIN
« Reply #86 on: March 30, 2008, 10:41:30 PM »
Quote

biggun wrote:

The big advantage of the AMIGA OS system is the elegant design and the resulting low memory and speed requirements of it.


Quote
If you want to build a new high end system take x86 and Linux.


If I want to enjoy a minimum of AmigaOSs elegance, I can in windows (and linux for that matter), all I need to do is to only use the most buggy alphas of applications, but again as I said that's just a minimum of the sweet taste of the AmigaOSs elegance, minimum because the cursed Winblows (and Linsux) does not permit the sweet buggy apps destroy the data of the others (and consequently mine) and kill the OSs, what a shame.
I have spoken !
 

Offline minator

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Re: Coldfire AGAIN
« Reply #87 on: March 30, 2008, 10:46:27 PM »
In terms of software PPC is the easiest option as you've got as there exists 3 JIT engines for running 68K software.  There's also as pointed out the option of going to one of the newer OSs.

On the other hand getting hold of one of these engines is another matter...

--

Another option would be to do a combo of some sort, i.e. an FPGA for backwards compatibility and a modern SoC for new stuff.

This is what a modern SoC can provide:
OpenPandora
 

Offline HenryCase

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Re: Coldfire AGAIN
« Reply #88 on: March 31, 2008, 01:26:10 AM »
Quote
Einstein wrote:
the cursed Winblows (and Linsux) does not permit the sweet buggy apps destroy the data of the others (and consequently mine) and kill the OSs, what a shame.


When was the last time this happened to you, and what version of AmigaOS were you using at the time?
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Offline JetRacer

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Re: Coldfire AGAIN
« Reply #89 from previous page: March 31, 2008, 01:43:19 AM »
You really got him there HenryCase; no Amiga user would ever recall any of the weeks last 57 gurus and which of the 3 OS versions he used at the time :-)
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