What is a 640x400 LCD TV supposed to do with higher resolutions ?

[rkauer]

 Looks like you got a good and steady screens.

 That TV/monitor will be in my wishlist.

 BTW: good pictures!

[Flashlab]

Yes, I'm happy with my purchase. Very good screen quality and vivid colours. Also no ghosting during fast animations; good monitor!

[arkpandora]

Not a bad idea though, but arranging it would be a bit of an hassle (accommodation etc.)
!

It was more a matter of not resisting to the need for a big stupid neologism.

[Krusher]

arkpandora wrote:

It was more a matter of not resisting to the need for a big stupid neologism.

 :lol: I took the bait  :-P

[arkpandora]

I have just installed my new Samsung SyncMaster 2032MW.  I must say I am really disappointed, for two reasons.

First, this monitor is unable to display interlaced screens : instead it displays only one line in two.  In other words, a 640x400 interlaced screen will be displayed in 320x200.

Second, I was right to compare it to my bad Samsung vacuum-cleaner : the building quality is poor.  The monitor emits a permanent sizzling noise which is unbearable in a silent environment.  And there is no firm junction between the monitor and its stand, so that every move is tricky and it looks like the monitor may fall without warning...

So I have to sell it and find something else...

Can somebody help me answer the following question : is there any LCD monitor with video input which is able to display interlaced screens without losing half the lines ?

[Damion]

I know from experience that the smaller Sharp "Aquos" TVs handle interlaced screens, in fact, they are rendered perfect with no flicker.

Couple of issues though:

While NTSC screens were fine, PAL screens would do weird things... even though the monitor is supposed to handle PAL (various flavors of PAL, NTSC, and SECAM are selectable). However, perhaps the units sold in PAL regions will perform differently.

AGA palette was reduced (16-bit). There are a ton of variations/different models, so all may not be the same.

**edit**

Also, I've tried the Samsung 171MP, which is an older (but still pretty nice) PVA panel (also handles AGA perfectly). Interlaced screens look decent, but they do flicker a bit. (Not like an old 1084, but noticeable.) Fantastic for most games though, even if 17" makes them look a tad blocky.

Only problem with my NTSC model was that it (aargh) didn't handle PAL. Not a problem for you, though. They've been out of production for a while, but they pop up on ebay. 170MP and 172MP *probably* work, but stay away from the 15" models as I'm pretty sure they were all TN.
 

[arkpandora]

D, thank you for your answer.

Excuse me : my diagnosis was wrong.  The monitor does display interlaced screen.  As I was not testing the monitor with an Amiga but with a Philips CDI whose display specifications I don't know well although I'm used to them, I have been mistaken by the fact that this monitor's behaviour was unknown to me, and is too weird to be true.  Besides the poor building quality, here are the two main problems of this Samsung monitor :

On the one hand, the monitor scales some resolutions down.  This is what happens with a Philips CDI : the standard resolution of the CDI is 380x284, but this monitor displays it in about 320x200, losing on the way about 40 % of the picture's pixel count.  As a consequence, this monitor is almost useless with a CDI and probably other computers or consoles.

On the other hand, the scan doubler quality is poor as well : the monitor takes about one second (!) to complete the signal processing.  This has two main visual consequences :

1. Animation is awful, especially scrollings.  Most of the time your Amiga looks like an emulated 50 Hz PAL Amiga on a 60 Hz screen.  As the main advantage of a real Amiga over an emulator is the animation quality (if you can't manage to synchronize your emulated display on your real display), there is no much point in using a real Amiga if you have to use such a TV/monitor.

2. Picture is different during the processing and after the processing.  During the processing, the moving parts of the picture are blurred and shaky.  As a consequence, what you have on your screen is a real mess unless nothing is moving.  Let's consider the mouse pointer : not only is it badly animated as I have just pointed it out, but it is blurred, trembling, and on the other objects (for example icons or drawers) it leaves behind him parasites that takes about one second to disappear.

In conclusion, I think that the Samsung SyncMaster 2032MW is a bad monitor that I would not recommend to anyone, as for the same price you can find better VGA-only monitors.  Unless these problems only concern the SCART RGB input.  I can't test the S-Video input as I don't own any device that can use it, but I will test the composite input someday.

@Flashlab

Can you confirm that your copy of this Samsung behaves the same way ?


This raises the following question : is every LCD TV/monitor that bad ?  This one is my first LCD TV, so I can't tell.  In that case, a usable replacement for CRT monitors is yet to be invented.

Would these problems be related to the "TN" technology D is referring to ?  Yet they don't appear in analog VGA.


@-D-

D, you are saying that the Samsung 171MP is "fantastic for most games".  Would my model or yours be an exception ?

[Damion]

This raises the following question : is every LCD TV/monitor that bad ? This one is my first LCD TV, so I can't tell. In that case, a usable replacement for CRT monitors is yet to be invented.[/quote]

IMHO, dynamic images (still) do not appear as "fluid" as they can with a good CRT, though they can be entirely acceptable under the right conditions (and with a good quality LCD).

Would these problems be related to the "TN" technology D is referring to ? Yet they don't appear in analog VGA.

Probably not -- generally, TN may have an edge over other panel types when it comes to moving images. Only problem is color loss (edit -- and viewing angle), which can have a negative effect with AGA.

@-D-

D, you are saying that the Samsung 171MP is "fantastic for most games". Would my model or yours be an exception ?

Hard to say, since I've only tried a few LCDTVs. Bottom line is it's almost impossible to get a display that will do everything (or doesn't have at least one major shortcoming) without spending a lot of money, possibly thousands.

The 171MP (PAL version) should be a good LCD for playing games and demos, since it displays non-laced amiga screens very well (and is also decent PC monitor). Naturally, this is keeping in mind some of the limitations of LCD technology, especially with an older panel like the 171MP -- moving images will not be quite as fluid as a CRT (but not terrible, and I'm a little picky), and black levels are only OK. The upshot is colors are bright and beautiful, it makes a good PC (and TV) screen, and it should be easier on the eyes than your average CRT.

There are probably better screens for the task than what you got, and unfortunately it is a crapshot. You may have to try several before you find one that is acceptable. Plus, there's a huge subjective element here -- what one finds "perfect" might look like total crap to you.
 
I hate to say it, but a good quality scaler + good quality CRT monitor is probably the overall "best" for classic amiga use. Maybe Jens will release his rumored scandoubler sometime...

[Flashlab]

I'm sorry you have a bad experience! I'm still very pleased with my 2032mw. I use it as my TV as well. I don't have any problem with the build quality; mine has a very sturdy foot and stands very stable.

About the picture quality; as I showed in my pictures (which are like I said of RTG screens), they are of good quality, at least in my opinion.

I still have to try AGA screens; I'm waiting for my S-Video adapter to try it. I will post when I have more info! What connection did you use for the Amiga to the monitor?

Once again I'm sorry you had this bad experience; I feel kind of guilty...

[arkpandora]

@D

Thank you again for your help.

There is obviously no comparison between the problems I am running into and what you describe - which are definitely normal drawbacks of the LCD technology.  I have used several LCD monitors in VGA until now, and none has ever brought me anything close to such an awful result, which doesn't show up with the VGA input of the same monitor either.  So I suppose than the scan doubler is simply very bad.

Can you confirm that you haven't ever noticed the problems I mention on the LCD panels you have used, for example the awful mouse pointer animation, which can't be missed ?


@Flashlab

Thank you for your answer.

Don't worry : several A.org members had recommended Samsung monitors, and I had no reason to expect such a bad result as I expected every LCD TV to have a decent scan doubler.

Even if your Amiga screen pictures were taken from one of the video inputs, I couldn't judge anything from them, as only the moving parts of the picture are affected by these scan doubling horrors, and the Amiga default modes are not concerned by the downscaling problem.

The SCART input is the only video input I have tested until now.  Why do you prefer S-Video to SCART for the Amiga ?  I hope you won't be as horrified as I am.

[Krusher]

arkpandora, sorry to hear you have issues with the Samsung, but from what you say about it I think you have a bad screen from the start, I suggest you return it and claim your warranty on it. I've seen other people complaining about it and I supsect there is a bad production run out there.

[arkpandora]

Well, maybe you are right.  That's probably what I will do.

[Damion]

arkpandora wrote:
@D

Thank you again for your help.

There is obviously no comparison between the problems I am running into and what you describe - which are definitely normal drawbacks of the LCD technology.  I have used several LCD monitors in VGA until now, and none has ever brought me anything close to such an awful result, which doesn't show up with the VGA input of the same monitor either.

OK, cool. We are definitely on the same page then!

Can you confirm that you haven't ever noticed the problems I mention on the LCD panels you have used, for example the awful mouse pointer animation, which can't be missed ?

No, (except *maybe* the part of the screen being cut-off aspect) those things aren't normal. Amiga screens (that worked) looked just fine on the 171MP and the Aquos, the Aquos even handled the interlaced screens like a champ. I've even played a fair amount of "Battle Duel" on my 740T (using native "vga" modes) and it looked just fine. It does sound like your monitor is either broken or the scandoubler is poor.

[arkpandora]

No, (except *maybe* the part of the screen being cut-off aspect) those things aren't normal.

Note that that in the case of the 380x284 CDI screen mode, what the monitor does is not cutting off what goes beyond 320 and 200, but displaying the whole screen as if it was a 320x200 screen.  In other words, it degrades the picture.

 I've even played a fair amount of "Battle Duel" on my 740T (using native "vga" modes) and it looked just fine.

Note also that the VGA modes run just fine : only the SCART input (and maybe the other scan-doubled inputs) is at fault.

So yes, either it is a bad scan doubler or a bad specimen.

[Flashlab]

I'm going to use S-Video because SCART is already taken by my Digital TV. There's a guy on EAB doing a video port to S-Video adapter and I ordered one. Originally to feed it into a TV card for my G-rex but I don't have a suitable card (yet). Since the 2032MW has S-Video IN I'll try that.

[arkpandora]

An EAB member has just told me in this thread that his Samsung model (a 225MW) has the same animation problems as mine.  So it could mean that no current Samsung model is able to produce decent animation through an RGB input.

In that thread I give the following more detailed description of the problem.

"Here is what any moving part of the screen looks like :

1. When an object moves off, it becomes blurred and starts flickering.
2. As its new position is slowly updated, you can see the objet at a new position while it has not yet been erased from a previous one : for example, when it moves you can see several copies of the mouse pointer (at best it is like the mouse pointer of a PC), while the Amiga mouse pointer's animation is normally perfect.
3. Once the object has been erased from a previous position, it leaves on the picture various distortions that disappear progressively.
4. The picture and objects take about one second to recover their normal appearance.

In addition, I noticed that the 380x284 resolution of the Philips CDI is scaled down to something like 320x200, which makes this monitor unusable with a Philips CDI and maybe other systems, although the CDI works well on any CRT TV or monitor."

Could anyone using an Amiga connected to any LCD TV or monitor's RGB input tell me whether the same symptoms arise ?

Thank you again.


@Flashlab

Please inform me of your results !