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Author Topic: WTB: Flicker Fixer  (Read 8521 times)

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Offline alexh

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Re: WTB: Flicker Fixer
« Reply #29 from previous page: July 27, 2007, 12:00:03 PM »
Roy's CoCo VGA contains the Averlogic chips.

The issue is not the ADC (that is effectively 30-bit) but it is the RGB input to the scandoubler which is only 16-bit (5:6:5)

Quote
And also, sadly, AmigaKit is right about *why* SD/FFs aren't been made. Jens Schoenfeld gave us the exact same reasons for the lack of SD/FF hardware.

Price is the killer, you HAVE to use off the shelf components to keep the price down. If you are above the $65 (£35) is the "wife acceptable" price point. Anything above that and you have to almost DOUBLE the sale price as you will only sell half as many.

MiniMig has a built in Scandoubler, as does Clone-A so a separate scandoubler project is mute at this point.
 

Offline murpleTopic starter

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Re: WTB: Flicker Fixer
« Reply #30 on: July 27, 2007, 03:40:16 PM »
Quote
MiniMig has a built in Scandoubler, as does Clone-A so a separate scandoubler project is mute at this point.


Speak for yourself. Many of us are vintage computer geeks who enjoy using their Amigas. Clone-A and MiniMig are neither vintage nore Amigas. Yeah, they may be cool, they may do just about the same thing functionally, but that's kind of like reprinting a bunch of antique stamps and trying to convince a stamp collector to buy the reprints because they're a bit cheaper and in better condition than the originals. I think its awesome that people are re-engineeering Amiga clones with modern parts. There's no way in hell you'll ever see me buying one though.

 

Offline vic20owner

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Re: WTB: Flicker Fixer
« Reply #31 on: July 27, 2007, 04:07:38 PM »
Also, minimig is basically a 14mhz A500, is it not?

I dont want that!

I want something FASTER than my A1200 68030/50/64MB.

Plus I have yet to hear about the compatibility of minimig with original games, etc.

Still waiting for a review.
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Offline murpleTopic starter

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Re: WTB: Flicker Fixer
« Reply #32 on: July 27, 2007, 05:03:23 PM »
Quote

da9000 wrote:
PS. I'm with Murple on the "open sourced" SD/FF, and agree fully with the "don't care about RoHS/production pieces" attitude on these things. If it's meant for homebrew, then it doesn't matter. I have plenty of DB25 cable to tear apart for getting my DB23 (just pull 2 pins out :)  And also, sadly, AmigaKit is right about *why* SD/FFs aren't been made. Jens Schoenfeld gave us the exact same reasons for the lack of SD/FF hardware.


Im researching the CoCo vs Amiga RGB and considering buying one of these. I'll have to open it up and look at it when I get it, then maybe I'll try using my (admittedly almost nonexistent) electronics skills to see if I can build a more Amiga friendly version.

A torn apart DB25 might work, but theres got to be a way to scavenge DB23 connectors from old monitor cables, etc.
 

Offline alexh

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Re: WTB: Flicker Fixer
« Reply #33 on: July 27, 2007, 06:52:43 PM »
Quote

vic20owner wrote:
Also, minimig is basically a 14mhz A500, is it not?

No it's not, it's a 7MHz OCS A1000/A2000/A500! (for the timebeing.)
 

Offline da9000

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Re: WTB: Flicker Fixer
« Reply #34 on: July 28, 2007, 06:12:16 AM »
Quote

alexh wrote:
The issue is not the ADC (that is effectively 30-bit) but it is the RGB input to the scandoubler which is only 16-bit (5:6:5)


Could you explain that to me? Does it mean that the Amiga RGB port only outputs 16bit color, therefore a maximum of 65536 colors? I thought the OCS/ECS chipset will only ever output 12bit color (4096 color palette), the AGA chipset 18bit color (262144 color palette), and any graphics card solutions will go up to full 24bit color (although they can also do 16bit color). Where does the 16bit come into play?

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alexh wrote:
Price is the killer, you HAVE to use off the shelf components to keep the price down. If you are above the $65 (£35) is the "wife acceptable" price point. Anything above that and you have to almost DOUBLE the sale price as you will only sell half as many.


Understandable, unfortunately.

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alexh wrote:
MiniMig has a built in Scandoubler, as does Clone-A so a separate scandoubler project is mute at this point.


Granted that they do, but that doesn't really mean anything. They're still not useful to anyone with a real Amiga. What you might have meant is that the "work" has been done, it just needs to be packaged as a stand-alone product? Or am I wrong?
 

Offline da9000

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Re: WTB: Flicker Fixer
« Reply #35 on: July 28, 2007, 06:17:13 AM »
Quote

murple wrote:
Im researching the CoCo vs Amiga RGB and considering buying


Please do let us know what you find out. I'm also very interested in an external scandoubler that can possibly be duplicated. I found the Averlogic chips for very cheap (only a couple bucks each I think)

Quote

murple wrote:
get it, then maybe I'll try using my (admittedly almost nonexistent) electronics skills to see if I can build a more Amiga friendly version.


No expert myself, but I'm sure I and others can help. As evidenced already, there are a bunch of really talented hardware guys on these forums.

Also, I think the two biggest "Amiga specific" features are a de-interlacer (the most difficult part of a SD/FF it seems) and secondly the "31Khz or higher mode detection passthrough" functionality, so any VGA-capable modes are passed through and not up-converted.

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murple wrote:
A torn apart DB25 might work, but theres got to be a way to scavenge DB23 connectors from old monitor cables, etc.


Surely that's better, but I meant it for the case when we don't have a dead monitor or cable :) I've used the technique many times myself. In fact, last night as I was trying to revive my dead migy, I had to make a DB9 VGA to DB15 VGA converter: one serial cable and one (dead) PeeCee graphics card slaughtered :)
 

Offline freqmax

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Re: WTB: Flicker Fixer
« Reply #36 on: July 28, 2007, 09:18:13 AM »
Quote

vic20owner wrote:
Also, minimig is basically a 14mhz A500, is it not?
I want something FASTER than my A1200 68030/50/64MB.


It's 7 MHz Amiga (thus compatible). And maybe someone feels like doing a faster version.
But this is also a race against decaying hardware. At some point in time there won't be any hardware to compare against for purpose of reverese engineering.
 

Offline da9000

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Re: WTB: Flicker Fixer
« Reply #37 on: July 29, 2007, 11:43:04 PM »
I will answer [part of] my own questions in detail (corrections may be necessary), for further future reference:

While reading this thread:
http://www.amiga.org/forums/showthread.php?t=18247

I stumbled upon MskoDestny's comments which are the exact answers I was looking for:

Quote

 Those digital signals only give you 4-bit color (for attaching to a CGA monitor). Only way to get the full color resolution is to use an ADC on the analog RGB signals, make a video slot scandoubler or make something that clips on to the appropriate chips.

The added ADC of the analog solution pushes you over what makes sense for a $100 product unless you're willing to order the parts in sufficient quantity (which of course requires capital). A digital solution is complicated by the fact that no one manufacturers 5V DRAM chips anymore (well at least none that I've come across) and SRAM is kind of expensive for the quantities you need. Since AGA has 24-bits worth of video signal it's not a trivial number of signals to convert (though the fact that it's not a bidirectional signal probably allows for cheasier solutions).


So the digital RGB outputs (on the DB23 RGB port) are only 4bit (16 colors), and thus pretty much useless :(

As mentioned before the options are:

1) Internal Video Slot solution (occupies slot, much like CyberVision 64/3D, has access to best quality/full OCS+ECS/AGA 12/24bit DIGITAL signals, is problematic since not all video slots are the same, and some Amiga models don't even have one, also a pain since the machine has to be opened up)

2) Internal Chip Hijack solution (attaches on top of Alice or appropriate chip and thus allows an empty video slot, much like some DCE solutions, has access to best quality/full OCS+ECS/AGA 12/24bit DIGITAL signals, is problematic since different Amiga models have different video chips, also a pain since the machine has to be opened up and furthermore one has to much around with the delicate circuitboard components)

3) External Analog To Digital solution (easily attaches externally to the RGB port and is thus the most "universal" solution, has access to the "not so best" quality OCS+ECS/AGA 12/24bit *ANALOG* signals)

Clearly for the best quality solutions 1 and 2 are the right choices. Clearly for the most trouble-free and most compatibility solution 3 is the right choice.

One thought that I had in mind is that even though the 3rd solution doesn't give the best results, an improvement would be to use the digital RGB signals to "dynamically calibrate" the ADC circuits. In other words, when the ADC samples a single RGB pixel value as 23,45,9 it can then compare the lowest 4 bits of each component to the digital RGB values, and do some fancy "auto-calibration" or even "auto-error-correction" (this would only work with component values less than 16 due to only having 4bits per component from the digital RGB lines).


EDIT:

Now that I read the quote again, I'm not 100% sure if the 4bits digital output pertains to each RGB component. Anybody have a link to someplace documenting the digital RGB outputs?

Also, when AlexH said that the ADC is only 16bits, I think he means that the ADC might sample at 10bits per component, but will only output 5 or 6 bits per component (depending on if it's 5:6:5 or 5:5:6, etc). Can you verify this AlexH? Thanks


EDIT2:

And now I will fully answer my questions.

Looking at the following schematic by Ian Stedman: http://www.ianstedman.co.uk/Downloads/scandoubler.png and looking at the AL250 chip, one can see what AlexH is referring to as the "16bit limit": it's those pins named VDIN[0-15]. The input to the scandoubler piece (AL250) is limited to 16bit. BLAH! Hopefully a replacement for the AL250 is easy to find.
 

Offline Robbie

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Re: WTB: Flicker Fixer
« Reply #38 on: July 30, 2007, 12:57:59 AM »
I'm selling a scan doubler/flicker fixer for A1200/A4000 on ebay at the moment!

link
 

Offline Boot_WB

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Re: WTB: Flicker Fixer
« Reply #39 on: July 30, 2007, 01:27:19 AM »
Quote

alexh wrote:
MiniMig has a built in Scandoubler, as does Clone-A so a separate scandoubler project is mute at this point.


Moot. Not Mute - Moot.
MOOT!

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Offline AmigaPixel

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Re: WTB: Flicker Fixer
« Reply #40 on: July 30, 2007, 03:35:01 AM »
 does anyone know which Scan doubler Flicker Fixer is Video Toaster compatible besides ToastScan? :-?
 

Offline murpleTopic starter

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Re: WTB: Flicker Fixer
« Reply #41 on: July 30, 2007, 04:05:32 AM »
Quote

Robbie wrote:
I'm selling a scan doubler/flicker fixer for A1200/A4000 on ebay at the moment!

link


I bought one of the same kind recently. It will technically work in a 1200, but... be warned. If you keep your Amiga in its original case , the place where this board clips on is right under the hard drive. You can't fit the hard drive in the case if you use this flicker fixer... at least, not in its normal location. I'm still looking for a way to fit it in there because I don't want to towerize my 1200.

If you have a towerized 1200 (or 4000) or can rearrange where your hard drive fits (or if youre using a flash to IDE thing) it gives OK video. On my VGA monitor it has some slightly annoying vertical lines, but maybe thats just the LCD monitor I'm using. When I have time to figure out how the hell to fit both the flicker fixer and hard drive in my 1200, I'm gonna try it on a non-LCD monitor.

If I cant figure out how to fit it all in there, I'll be selling one too haha.

I'd really really like to get a better model (preferably external) that can be used on more kinds of Amigas. Preferably with a clearer display too.
 

Offline Damion

Re: WTB: Flicker Fixer
« Reply #42 on: July 30, 2007, 06:14:00 AM »
Quote

murple wrote:
Quote

Robbie wrote:
I'm selling a scan doubler/flicker fixer for A1200/A4000 on ebay at the moment!

link


I bought one of the same kind recently. It will technically work in a 1200, but... be warned. If you keep your Amiga in its original case , the place where this board clips on is right under the hard drive. You can't fit the hard drive in the case if you use this flicker fixer... at least, not in its normal location. I'm still looking for a way to fit it in there because I don't want to towerize my 1200.

If you have a towerized 1200 (or 4000) or can rearrange where your hard drive fits (or if youre using a flash to IDE thing) it gives OK video. On my VGA monitor it has some slightly annoying vertical lines, but maybe thats just the LCD monitor I'm using. When I have time to figure out how the hell to fit both the flicker fixer and hard drive in my 1200, I'm gonna try it on a non-LCD monitor.

If I cant figure out how to fit it all in there, I'll be selling one too haha.

I'd really really like to get a better model (preferably external) that can be used on more kinds of Amigas. Preferably with a clearer display too.



It can be done... IIRC, the drive will sit right on the internal metal shielding, and you just eliminate the stock drive caddy. I had the DCE internal SD/FF, IDE-Fix "Express"  module, and IDE drive all inside the stock casing. (All those hacks gave my A1200 a real "ghetto-rig" feel, LOL.)
 

Offline Chain

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Re: WTB: Flicker Fixer
« Reply #43 on: July 30, 2007, 08:28:49 AM »
Quote

murple wrote:
You can't fit the hard drive in the case if you use this flicker fixer... at least, not in its normal location. I'm still looking for a way to fit it in there because I don't want to towerize my 1200.


you can always use CF card as harddrive  8-)
too lazy to use shift key properly...
 

Offline murpleTopic starter

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Re: WTB: Flicker Fixer
« Reply #44 on: July 31, 2007, 01:12:41 AM »
Quote
It can be done... IIRC, the drive will sit right on the internal metal shielding, and you just eliminate the stock drive caddy. I had the DCE internal SD/FF, IDE-Fix "Express"  module, and IDE drive all inside the stock casing. (All those hacks gave my A1200 a real "ghetto-rig" feel, LOL.)


The shielding actually wont fit either. I mean, I was able to get it on there (after covering the bottom of the shield with electrical tape to prevent shorts) but it was bulging up and I'm afraid that might bend the circuit board over time.

I think I'll try getting a longer IDE cable and putting it off on the side somewhere.

The flash IDE is an idea, but I need to read more about how long those drives actually last. Sounds like theyve got a kinda short lifespan... hundreds of thousands of writes. Sounds like a lot, but if you think about it, its really not that much.