The OpenAmiga Standard

[mdwh2]

Rodney wrote:
I like that idea. Having more then one library to do the same thing is a bit silly.  I'd think the OS3.1 APIs should be the path to stick to... Adding more libraries just adds fractures to the OS/community.

I think we should keep it simple. Both OSs will prolly support the base install of OS3.1  (through emulation or whatever) so i think OS3.1 is the place to start.

AIUI, the point about this is that it's a set of libraries/features which are available across the various AmigaOS clones. So MUI is included because it's available on AmigaOS and Morphos, and has a clone on AROS - not because they're trying to say it's "better" than Reaction, or are trying to split the community.

The problem with only supporting the basic OS3.1 API is that it's getting rather dated. Trying to program gadtools used to drive me insane.. later toolkits such as MUI are much more powerful.

[NewRevolution]

May I come with a suggestion? For the website - openamiga.tk, for each "standard" that is to be made, could it be possible to describe it?

E.g. MUI, CGX, OpenGL - they all need to be defined. By that I mean there must be a common cencus / agreement of what these standards are, and then maybe have som more technical specs. about them - as they aredescribed  now.

I don't know much about these standards, but I'll bet different ppl have different views on these "artefacts".

And just a quick Q about the network part. Wouldn't there be a good idea to develop APIs for 802  LAN/MAN Standards? That also includes 802.11 (a and b) wireless. IIRC the A1200 had a PCMCIA port? Excellent for wireless! You can read more about these standards on www.ieee802.org

[bloodline]

mdwh2 wrote:

Rodney wrote:
I like that idea. Having more then one library to do the same thing is a bit silly.  I'd think the OS3.1 APIs should be the path to stick to... Adding more libraries just adds fractures to the OS/community.

I think we should keep it simple. Both OSs will prolly support the base install of OS3.1  (through emulation or whatever) so i think OS3.1 is the place to start.

AIUI, the point about this is that it's a set of libraries/features which are available across the various AmigaOS clones. So MUI is included because it's available on AmigaOS and Morphos, and has a clone on AROS - not because they're trying to say it's "better" than Reaction, or are trying to split the community.

The problem with only supporting the basic OS3.1 API is that it's getting rather dated. Trying to program gadtools used to drive me insane.. later toolkits such as MUI are much more powerful.

While it is true the 3.1 kernel is old, it should be noted that it is tried, tested, it works and it is well known.

Openamiga is not trying to hold back developments, but give developers an idea of what the minimum API is supported across the Amiga Clone platforms.

I would hope that improvemetns to the 3.1 Kernel can be suggested via openamiga and then implemented on all the clones in an API compatibile way.

If we don't do this now, the three systems will probably drift apart, splitting the community irreversibly.
This, as they say,  is our last best chance for peace :-D

[bloodline]

NewRevolution wrote:
May I come with a suggestion? For the website - openamiga.tk, for each "standard" that is to be made, could it be possible to describe it?

E.g. MUI, CGX, OpenGL - they all need to be defined. By that I mean there must be a common cencus / agreement of what these standards are, and then maybe have som more technical specs. about them - as they aredescribed  now.

I don't know much about these standards, but I'll bet different ppl have different views on these "artefacts".

And just a quick Q about the network part. Wouldn't there be a good idea to develop APIs for 802  LAN/MAN Standards? That also includes 802.11 (a and b) wireless. IIRC the A1200 had a PCMCIA port? Excellent for wireless! You can read more about these standards on www.ieee802.org

It's important to remember we are not talking about drivers of the underlying systems, that is up to the OS teams.

What we are talking about is the the interface between the OS and the apps...

[bloodline]

Good point raised by Dan Cox on Ann...
We really should include AREXX compatibility into the openamiga spec.
Though I don't know if MOS has it? If not then they can use AROS's Regina system I guess.

Side note:
It would be ince for all programs to at least support Arexx in some way.

I've now posted our details as news on the following sites:-

http://osnews.com
http://ann.lu
http://slashdot.org
http://www.gfxbase.com

and Kees posted it on here! Thanks Kees. :-)

I've had a lot of positive feedback via email, and the only negative feedback so far, has been from non-Amiga trolls on osnews, who have zero understanding of what we are trying to achieve anyway.

[Rodney]

Well, as i see it, AmigaOS and MorphOS are supporting 3.1 APIs or something similar. Once they start to get a few native apps, they'll drop that emulation quicker then you can say, "drop that emulation" .

So keeping up with the times is a good thing. I think what woudl also be a good thing is to try add third party apps rather than official MorphOS or AmigaOS things to the set of features/requirements.

MUI is a good example. MUI will be included in AOS4 for some time to come. It will also be avaliable in MOS and in a compatible form for AROS.

But, as i've said in the news item discussion. In stead of trying to get users/developers to use these sets of tool, i think we should push AmigaOS/MorphOS/AROS developers to work in POSIX compliant. That way, we'll benifit the community on all platforms but we'll also have a wide range of software.

I know this will be a lot more difficult, because this will require some development time, but the result i think would be much worth it.

Not that im saying this isnt a goood idea. I needs to be done. Just correctly.

[bloodline]

Rodney wrote:
Well, as i see it, AmigaOS and MorphOS are supporting 3.1 APIs or something similar. Once they start to get a few native apps, they'll drop that emulation quicker then you can say, "drop that emulation" .

So keeping up with the times is a good thing. I think what woudl also be a good thing is to try add third party apps rather than official MorphOS or AmigaOS things to the set of features/requirements.

MUI is a good example. MUI will be included in AOS4 for some time to come. It will also be avaliable in MOS and in a compatible form for AROS.

But, as i've said in the news item discussion. In stead of trying to get users/developers to use these sets of tool, i think we should push AmigaOS/MorphOS/AROS developers to work in POSIX compliant. That way, we'll benifit the community on all platforms but we'll also have a wide range of software.

I know this will be a lot more difficult, because this will require some development time, but the result i think would be much worth it.

Not that im saying this isnt a goood idea. I needs to be done. Just correctly.

As I've tried to point out, POSIX isn't really an issues here.. we are talking about things that POSIX does not cover at all!!!

In fact choosing a POSIX compatibile API will be an integral part of the openamiga standard.


-Edit- one of the reasons why I'm a keen on using AROS (or any AmigaOSoid for that matter) other than, say the rather fine, AtheOS is because I don't want just another POSIX OS... sure have support for POSIX, but don't let it rule you... we have our own standards lets look after them. :-)

bloodline wrote:

Rodney wrote:
Well, as i see it, AmigaOS and MorphOS are supporting 3.1 APIs or something similar. Once they start to get a few native apps, they'll drop that emulation quicker then you can say, "drop that emulation" .

So keeping up with the times is a good thing. I think what woudl also be a good thing is to try add third party apps rather than official MorphOS or AmigaOS things to the set of features/requirements.

MUI is a good example. MUI will be included in AOS4 for some time to come. It will also be avaliable in MOS and in a compatible form for AROS.

But, as i've said in the news item discussion. In stead of trying to get users/developers to use these sets of tool, i think we should push AmigaOS/MorphOS/AROS developers to work in POSIX compliant. That way, we'll benifit the community on all platforms but we'll also have a wide range of software.

I know this will be a lot more difficult, because this will require some development time, but the result i think would be much worth it.

Not that im saying this isnt a goood idea. I needs to be done. Just correctly.

As I've tried to point out, POSIX isn't really an issues here.. we are talking about things that POSIX does not cover at all!!!

In fact choosing a POSIX compatibile API will be an integral part of the openamiga standard.


-Edit- one of the reasons why I'm a keen on using AROS (or any AmigaOSoid for that matter) other than, say the rather fine, AtheOS is because I don't want just another POSIX OS... sure have support for POSIX, but don't let it rule you... we have our own standards lets look after them. :-)

I think that is a very good point.  Why be just another UNIX clone?  As Greenboy pointed out, QNX has a POSIX layer, but it isn't a UNIX, and it's native API's are superior, but having the POSIX layer helps bring apps across.

[filson]

Come check out our new web design.
IMHO it looks a bit more serious now. good thing to put behind the words.

[Crumb]

One thing wich should be implemented soon is a gcc "distro" wich allows the programmer to compile binaries for MorphOS/AROS/OS4/OS3.x easily with a simple flag... an IDE would be even nice but some people may don't use it... but I'd like an easy installer... another thing that causes quite a lot problems for newbies like me are the includes, an standard for includes would be nice...
So I would like to see a new gcc for dummies like me with includes for dummies... sorry, I know that asking is easy but I don't have a clue about GCC because you have to install ADE etc... I have it working thanks to Louise's gcc distro, but I'd like to see it with an installer and the option of compiling for the various AmigaOS/AROS/MorphOS...

come on AROS people... you already have to make a native GCC for AROS, so what about some changes and making it compile for other OSes doing some changes? ;-)
You may use a textfile storing the config of each OS, for example:
*MorphOS
Includes:morphosincludes
*AROS:
...
etc
Now I'm not asking even an IDE, but just something that feels comfortable to use even being a command line...
A GUI like StormC that also showed you the functions you have defined would be superb...
What do you think about this "OpenAmiga" compiler?
It would come with the OpenAmiga Includes (AHI, SDL, etc...)
If you started to do an IDE, I could help a little with some documentation, for example showing some examples about functions like you have in VisualStudio...
I only know how to use GadTools, MUI looks a little difficult although I haven't tried seriously to do something with it...
Now that we are defining standards it would be nice to have some standard classes for C++, I have seen some attempts on Aminet but as they aren't a standard they seem to have little followers...
If we had something to create GUIs as easily as in Delphi, C Builder or Visual C we would see lots of programs appearing... I saw something called VisualE... I'd like a mixture of GadTools and StormC...
I know that I talk too much, but I don't have the knowledge to change GCC, I just can make very simple apps

filson wrote:
Come check out our new web design.
IMHO it looks a bit more serious now. good thing to put behind the words.

Thanks to NewRevolution for that. :-D

This is shaping up to be a real  community effort so far!

[DavidF215]

MUI shouldn't be a standard since it is not a free application (unless it's changed since I looked at their website a long time ago). Making users purchase MUI in addition to AmigaOS and hardware just to run a "standard" application is bad, bad, bad. If MUI was a minimum standard, then new users couldn't even run such "standard" applications if they didn't have a full copy of MUI.

[Kronos]

@David

see reply in news-item  :-P

[greenboy]

Hi Crumb,

Just to sidetrack on development toolchain further - and since you mentioned IDEs: I'd like to see something like Eclipse shaping how development is done ;  }

greenboy wrote:
Hi Crumb,

Just to sidetrack on development toolchain further - and since you mentioned IDEs: I'd like to see something like Eclipse shaping how development is done ;  }

Eclipse is a fantastic IDE, especially the GTK2 version with the CDT plugin for C/C++ development.

Just one problem, no JVM to run it in! :-)