Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Author Topic: 8 Mb CHIP RAM on All Amigas  (Read 10065 times)

Description:

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Matt_H

Re: 8 Mb CHIP RAM on All Amigas
« Reply #59 from previous page: June 03, 2006, 06:28:33 PM »
Quote
I don't believe that...........if this were True, how is it that an A500 wich was created before 2mb CHipRAM existed is able to see the 2mb ChipRAM from a MegaCHIP add-on without changing any of the customs chips?

Those expansions did change custom chips - they swapped the old 512K or 1MB Agnus with the then-new 2MB version that had been built for A3000s, A600s, and A500+s.

In the case of the 4000, at the *very least* the 2MB Alice would have to be replaced with an 8MB Alice (which does not exist).
 

Offline Piru

  • \' union select name,pwd--
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Join Date: Aug 2002
  • Posts: 6946
    • Show only replies by Piru
    • http://www.iki.fi/sintonen/
Re: 8 Mb CHIP RAM on All Amigas
« Reply #60 on: June 03, 2006, 07:00:43 PM »
@Tricky
Quote
It will also call Forbid() when it starts, so even if another program has started the blitter, it won't be able to start it again because it won't be running anymore. Waitblit() will then suffice to ensure the blitter is no longer in use.

Not quite. For example the blitter queue of the OS itself is run from interrupts. Forbid() + WaitBlit() doesn't guarantee that further blits won't happen.

Quote
Also, as for interrupts, if an interrupt happens to be in Chip ram, I'll need to make sure its vector is removed from the Interrupt Server when swapping that chip ram out. Although there's not usually much need to put an interrupt in chip ram, but of course the interrupt may access chip ram, and how to know this? Interrupts may defeat me...

You misunderstood. Audio interrupt occurs when the sample playing has finished, where the interrupt code is located is irrelevant.

Quote
I know it's common, but the official commodore line was always that you weren't supposed to use the hardware directly.

It was? Where did they say that? If so, why did they publish hardware reference manual with examples on how to use the hardware directly?

Quote
Even still, as I already said, you'd need to be on the workbench screen to swap the app out anyway so this won't apply.

I wouldn't consider this very usable solution then.
 

Offline keropi

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Join Date: Sep 2004
  • Posts: 2466
    • Show only replies by keropi
Re: 8 Mb CHIP RAM on All Amigas
« Reply #61 on: June 03, 2006, 07:06:15 PM »
when will the madness stop???  :crazy:
 

Offline Piru

  • \' union select name,pwd--
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Join Date: Aug 2002
  • Posts: 6946
    • Show only replies by Piru
    • http://www.iki.fi/sintonen/
Re: 8 Mb CHIP RAM on All Amigas
« Reply #62 on: June 03, 2006, 07:07:52 PM »
@leirbag28
Quote
I don't believe that.

Believe it.

Quote
if this were True, how is it that an A500 wich was created before 2mb CHipRAM existed is able to see the 2mb ChipRAM from a MegaCHIP add-on without changing any of the customs chips?

Oh really? Well what is this Agnus 8375 chip doing on the board then?

Quote
Also how is Workbench 1.3 able to see it?

Workbench calls AvailMem(MEMF_CHIP). Kickstart 1.3 has always supported upto 2MB chip memory.

Quote
Neither Workbench 1.3 nor the custom chips needed to be told there was extra ChipRAM. it just detected it.

Wrong. Workbench just reports what exec library tells it via AvailMem. Depending on the revision of the agnus it can only see 512KB, 1MB or 2MB chip memory. However, it can not see more than 2MB. Even if you plugged in a new agnus that would do more than 2MB it would still not work.

Further even if you did, kickstart ROM would not see the chip memory above 2MB (it only scans upto 2MB).

Even if you fixed this, the 8MB chipmem would break all Zorro II autoconfig devices having memory.
 

Offline Unit01

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Join Date: Dec 2005
  • Posts: 26
    • Show only replies by Unit01
Re: 8 Mb CHIP RAM on All Amigas
« Reply #63 on: June 03, 2006, 08:10:01 PM »
Hi Everyone,

I suppose this is off topic but I had a retarded thought.

How about getting some sli like action going? Make a custom circuit to plug into the Denise socket that reads the incoming signals then splits the display jobs in two, sending maybe the 0-5 bitplane graphics to a Denise and the 6-11 bitplanes into another Denise. Then wire the resulting graphics to the video hybrid (Resistor network) through the socket. This probably wouldn't allow more chipram but the display refresh could be faster and maybe compatible with everything.


Regards

John
-----------------------------------------
A500/A590 A2000/GVP A3000 accel CD32/SX1
 

Offline Zac67

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Join Date: Nov 2004
  • Posts: 2890
    • Show only replies by Zac67
Re: 8 Mb CHIP RAM on All Amigas
« Reply #64 on: June 03, 2006, 08:58:00 PM »
Yeah, Dave tried that in the early 90s: AAA
 

Offline Hyperspeed

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Join Date: Jun 2004
  • Posts: 1749
    • Show only replies by Hyperspeed
Re: 8 Mb CHIP RAM on All Amigas
« Reply #65 on: June 03, 2006, 10:13:50 PM »
Quote
by Piru:
Use a program that reduces the picture size to fit the screen.


leirbag28: Get Visage and unbracket the tooltype [SCALE] in the Visage.info - this will give you the function to speedily scale and display 24-bit images to your current screen resolution (or a screenmode of your choice).

I like the way when programs iconify they free masses of ChipMem, some programs like DeluxePaint even offer to 'CloseWB'. I suppose this is a form of iconifying the OS, shame it didn't have this feature in the 'Window' menu of Workbench.

Quote
by motorollin:
1. The custom chips are physically only able to see a maximum of 2MB of chip RAM.


Well according to the Commodore manual, the A1200 is "only able to see a maximum of" 8MB of FastMem but an '030 in the trapdoor slot allows for greater address range.

A redesigned chipset piggybacked onto the motherboard could be put onto a single chip cheaply and be of enormous benefit and curiosity.

Quote
by motorollin:
4. Even if it was possible to use software to swap memory out, this would require the OS to be running. As soon as you run software which turns off the OS (read: a game), you lose your swapping ability, and you're back to 2MB of chip RAM.


It's not normally possible to boot a CD-ROM on Amiga before CD0: has been mounted and a CD filesystem loaded - Phase5 PPC cards had a ROM allowing you to view CC0: in the early boot menu. Any software intervention to get a replacement Agnus working with 8MB ChipMem could utilise a variety of early-boot techniques. There's another thread discussing the possibility of using a GFX card in the PCMCIA slot from a HP handheld PC.

Talking of UAE is just lazy, this discussion is about Amiga hardware not IBM x86 clones - a bit of fun and wonder, pushing boundaries and considering new possibilities is what leirbag28 is trying to encourage...

... and if the outcome has made someone consider the future of the MiniMig then that's a good thing. A totally redesigned A1200/3k/4k on a small chip/PCB would be so cool! Let's see how this OCS thing works out... then ECS/AGA is a possibility!

Decades after the C64 ceased production we have people doing far out things with it... people will be hacking the Amiga by the time men have landed on Mars probably!

:-D

EDIT:
So what are the chances of a replacement Lisa/Agnus to allow for 8MB? If the A500 MegaChip used an A2000 Agnus then couldn't a redesigned A4000 Agnus on a PIC chip or something be achieved?

Imagine an A1200 accelerator like the PowerVixxen or Dragon being touted with 8MB ChipMem/1GB FastMem/512MB GPU Mem/Faster CPU and a nice sized NAND chip with 2GB of solid state access.

:lol:
 

Offline Zac67

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Join Date: Nov 2004
  • Posts: 2890
    • Show only replies by Zac67
Re: 8 Mb CHIP RAM on All Amigas
« Reply #66 on: June 03, 2006, 10:59:09 PM »
Imagine having 256 Megs of DDR2 Chipmem.
Imagine running a 68080 @ 2000 MHz.
Imagine an Amiga Two - 64 bit architecture, of course.
Imagine AmigaOS 5.0.

Dream on. :roll: Some things just don't happen out of thin air.
 

Offline xeron

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Join Date: Mar 2002
  • Posts: 2533
    • Show only replies by xeron
    • http://www.petergordon.org.uk
Re: 8 Mb CHIP RAM on All Amigas
« Reply #67 on: June 03, 2006, 11:08:09 PM »
At the end of the day, an 8Mb Alice would only be able to see 8Mb in an A4000, since its the only Amiga motherboard in existance with enough address pins wired to the Alice chip.

Leirbag, just face it. The only things that would get you 8Mb of chip ram in any way compatible to existing amiga os & apps are:

1) Run UAE

2) Make an 8Mb Alice (and possibly revised other chips), and put them in an A4000

3) Emulate the whole chipset on the 68k (which is basically 1)

And thats it. All of the "so-called" impossible things you mentioned (memory cards, USB etc.) were feasible if someone came up with the hardware and drivers to do it. 8Mb chip ram is something different.

With appropriate glue hardware you can interface pretty much any peripheral to an Amiga (or C64, or anything with some IO ports). You could add a firewire port to a ZX81, but it wouldn't actually be useful ;-) ). But 8Mb chip ram just isn't possible in the way you want it to be done. It just isn't.

In fact, i'll say this. If you don't want to run AmigaOS, or any Amiga apps on it, you can add terabytes of chip ram to an Amiga. Its easy, you just put a PCB on the motherboard over the chip ram chips that has address decode logic that includes banking. Lets say, for example, writing a number between 0 and 4294967295 to address $C banks in a different 1Mb bank into the upper 1Mb of chip ram address space, and you actually had that much RAM on the board. Thats more than 4000 terabytes of chip ram.

Great. Except that AmigaOS and its apps simply would not be able to use it. You'd have to patch amiga os, and pretty much rewrite all of your software. It just wouldn't work. So get over it.

Edit: And before you say "Great! We've just got to fix the problem with software compatibility and its solved!", don't. Fixing it is more work than it gains you.

You'd have to change exec to remember the upper memory bank number for every task. That parts easy and has almost no speed penalty.

The problem is that AmigaOS and its apps expect to be able to pass memory pointers to each other. Now, you could pass 64bit pointers instead of 32 (32bit address, 32bit chip bank), but now you have to patch _every_ single Amiga application individually that you want to run, because every single amiga app and API uses 32 bit addresses, and you wouldn't be able to run a single existing binary natively without modification.
Playstation Network ID: xeron6
 

Offline leirbag28Topic starter

Re: 8 Mb CHIP RAM on All Amigas
« Reply #68 on: June 03, 2006, 11:09:47 PM »
@Piru

Re: 8 Mb CHIP RAM on All Amigas

@leirbag28
Quote:

    I don't believe that.


Believe it.

Quote:

    if this were True, how is it that an A500 wich was created before 2mb CHipRAM existed is able to see the 2mb ChipRAM from a MegaCHIP add-on without changing any of the customs chips?


Oh really? Well what is this Agnus 8375 chip doing on the board then?
------------------------------------------------------------------

Replacing the Agnus is obvious....Im only replying to those that suggested it needed Denice and other chips replaced with the MegaCHIP doesnt have and still works!  correct?




Quote:

    Also how is Workbench 1.3 able to see it?


Workbench calls AvailMem(MEMF_CHIP). Kickstart 1.3 has always supported upto 2MB chip memory.
--------------------------------------------------------------------

So your saying Commodore knew they would eventually invent the ECS that would have 2mb ChipRAM so allowed wb 1.3 and up to support it?   sounds unlikely to me.




Nevertheless.....I believe its Possible....if a new Agnus needs to be made and it works.............then its possible.  


CD32 is actually the best Amiga ever made by Commodore!...
 

Offline xeron

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Join Date: Mar 2002
  • Posts: 2533
    • Show only replies by xeron
    • http://www.petergordon.org.uk
Re: 8 Mb CHIP RAM on All Amigas
« Reply #69 on: June 03, 2006, 11:14:37 PM »
Workbench believes whatever exec tells it. If AvailMem( MEMF_CHIP ) returned 128Mb, workbench would say you had that much chip memory. I could write a patch right now that did that. You'd still not have more than 2mb chip ram, though.
Playstation Network ID: xeron6
 

Offline Piru

  • \' union select name,pwd--
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Join Date: Aug 2002
  • Posts: 6946
    • Show only replies by Piru
    • http://www.iki.fi/sintonen/
Re: 8 Mb CHIP RAM on All Amigas
« Reply #70 on: June 03, 2006, 11:26:26 PM »
@leirbag28
Quote
Replacing the Agnus is obvious....Im only replying to those that suggested it needed Denice and other chips replaced with the MegaCHIP doesnt have and still works! correct?

...to get more than 2MB.

Naturally upto 2MB doesn't need total chipset replacement, because the whole system was designed to have maximum of 2MB.

Quote
So your saying Commodore knew they would eventually invent the ECS that would have 2mb ChipRAM so allowed wb 1.3 and up to support it?

Yes.

Quote
sounds unlikely to me.

Since you're not believing anything I say anyway: Take kickstart 1.3 image and disassemble it from offset $208. You find this:
Code: [Select]

lbC000208 lea    (0).w,a0
          lea    ($00200000),a1
          lea    (lbC00021A,pc),a5
          bra.w  lbC000592

A0 contains the start address for memory scan, A1 the end address. $200000 is 2097152 in decimal, or 2MB.
 

Offline B00tDisk

  • VIP / Donor - Lifetime Member
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Join Date: Dec 2002
  • Posts: 1670
    • Show only replies by B00tDisk
    • http://www.thedelversdungeon.com
Re: 8 Mb CHIP RAM on All Amigas
« Reply #71 on: June 04, 2006, 12:51:09 AM »
Someone mentioned the "more chip memory" with the MiniMig - how's that possible?
Back away from the EU-SSR!
 

Offline Piru

  • \' union select name,pwd--
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Join Date: Aug 2002
  • Posts: 6946
    • Show only replies by Piru
    • http://www.iki.fi/sintonen/
Re: 8 Mb CHIP RAM on All Amigas
« Reply #72 on: June 04, 2006, 01:31:20 AM »
@B00tDisk
Quote
"more chip memory" with the MiniMig - how's that possible?


It emulates all the custom chips in software, so it could easily be adjusted to support more chip memory, just like UAE.
 

Offline Zac67

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Join Date: Nov 2004
  • Posts: 2890
    • Show only replies by Zac67
Re: 8 Mb CHIP RAM on All Amigas
« Reply #73 on: June 04, 2006, 09:39:34 AM »
@Piru
What's the problem with Denise/Lisa? Don't they just take what they're given by Agnus/Alice?
 

Offline motorollin

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Join Date: Nov 2005
  • Posts: 8669
    • Show only replies by motorollin
Re: 8 Mb CHIP RAM on All Amigas
« Reply #74 on: June 04, 2006, 11:00:27 AM »
I'm starting to think this thread is a wind-up :lol:

@leirbag
Please, please prove us all wrong by re-designing the custom chips, rewriting kickstart and extensively modifying an A4000 motherboard. When I see the board, and watch the machine boot with no startup sequence and report 8MB of chip RAM, then I will believe it is possible :roll:

--
moto
Code: [Select]
10  IT\'S THE FINAL COUNTDOWN
20  FOR C = 1 TO 2
30     DA-NA-NAAAA-NAAAA DA-NA-NA-NA-NAAAA
40     DA-NA-NAAAA-NAAAA DA-NA-NA-NA-NA-NA-NAAAAA
50  NEXT C
60  NA-NA-NAAAA
70  NA-NA NA-NA-NA-NA-NAAAA NAAA-NAAAAAAAAAAA
80  GOTO 10