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Offline bhoggettTopic starter

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Re: Browser situation update?
« Reply #14 on: May 20, 2006, 06:28:07 PM »
Shame updates on progress seem to have stopped since December.  The latest AmiZilla news I've seen isn't particularly encouraging in the short-to-middle term either, and I take it IBrowser 2.4 (never mind v3) remains unreleased.

Things are not improving.  :-(
Bill Hoggett
 

Offline mr_a500

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Re: Browser situation update?
« Reply #15 on: May 20, 2006, 11:07:48 PM »
I keep going here to check on IBrowse 2.4 progress. Forget about the main text - that hasn't been updated for a while - but look at the right side about halfway down under Bugtrack:
Open: 37
Assigned: 13
Closed: 357

The number of closed bugs slowly increases and the open bugs decreases ...then it goes back up again (they keep finding new bugs). Over many weeks I saw the open bugs go from 39 to 33 and I thought "hey, they're getting there!". Then in a couple days it went back up to 38.

Obviously I want it to be completely bug-free and it's good that they are finding bugs so they can fix them, but it's frustrating. At the rate they've been going for the last 6 months, I wouldn't expect IBrowse 2.4 before 2007.

Offline ajlwalker

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Re: Browser situation update?
« Reply #16 on: May 20, 2006, 11:26:52 PM »
Anybody know what's going on with Grande Paihia?

It's supposed to support CSS.
 

Offline Hyperspeed

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Re: Browser situation update?
« Reply #17 on: May 21, 2006, 12:10:32 AM »
IBrowse 2.4 has been a long time coming, especially since it's been previewed at shows.

The Javascript support really slows IBrowse 2.3 down on eBay and Amiga.org.

Personally I think all websites should be like the old grey Aminet site. Just no-nonsense HTML.
 

Offline alenppc

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Re: Browser situation update?
« Reply #18 on: May 21, 2006, 02:08:55 AM »
Quote

Personally I think all websites should be like the old grey Aminet site. Just no-nonsense HTML.


Or just plain and simple HTML. You can actually achieve quite a lot without using CSS, and create some really nice looking websites.

The web was quite usable back in the '90s, pages loaded fine with a 33k modem, while if you try surfing with a 56k nowdays it becomes almost impossible. :roll:
 

Offline bhoggettTopic starter

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Re: Browser situation update?
« Reply #19 on: May 21, 2006, 02:17:16 AM »
The whole IB 2.4 situation is hard to comprehend. Even amateur or OSS projects set themselves a realistic release schedule. You fix the critical bugs, then as many of the other bugs in order of severity as you have time for, and then you release, even if there are more minor bugs still outstanding. You don't keep delaying ad infinitum unless the software is actually broken. Seems endemic to the Amiga scene, but I still don't understand the logic behind it.

As for sites being just vanilla HTML - well, I suppose some people wish we were still using ASCII based BBS systems on dial-up or browsing using text browsers only. The thing is everything changes and moves on to better things, and I can certainly see a case in a couple of years when people with outdated browsers are just going to find they can't access most sites on the net, be they simple web pages or fully fledged web applications or games.

We're staying well clear of any proprietary technologies like Flash or Java and we don't rely on any special hardware to enhance the display, and yet I still can't say to Amigans "Come and take a look and join us if it's your kind of thing.". Amigans don't even get the choice. That can't be good.
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Offline bhoggettTopic starter

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Re: Browser situation update?
« Reply #20 on: May 21, 2006, 02:30:47 AM »
Quote
Or just plain and simple HTML. You can actually achieve quite a lot without using CSS, and create some really nice looking websites.

That as may be, but I wouldn't dream of trying to get our game working without CSS and Javascript. I had enough trouble getting our interface to work properly with most popular browsers, and I don't think I'd even want to make the attempt without CSS.

Quote
The web was quite usable back in the '90s, pages loaded fine with a 33k modem, while if you try surfing with a 56k nowdays it becomes almost impossible. :roll:

True, but that's usually down to unnecessary bandwidth-eating content, fancy animations and streaming, neither of which would apply to us. When our site is slow, it's usually down to our host.

Besides, one of the plans for the future is to re-write our interface into an AJAX one, which should in fact cut down on the amount of data transmitted considerably, thus speeding things up. However, if the browser can't hack CSS and is flaky on Javascript, it will probably barf on an AJAX application too.
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Offline Legerdemain

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Re: Browser situation update?
« Reply #21 on: May 21, 2006, 01:20:09 PM »
Quote
Ibrowse 2.3 was one of the browsers I tried a year or so ago when I tested the site compatibility, but since it doesn't handle css adequately it made a complete mess of the layout rendering the page unusable. Remember the old NetPositive browser on BeOS? Same problem, same result.


I thought one of the main reasons for coding everything related to layout in CSS was to ensure that the page worked nicely (to browse, not looking perfect layoutwise) even without CSS-support (in this particular case I do not know which site is discussed, so I can't comment on that very issue).

Though, my experience says that more and more sites seems to work really well in IBrowse 2.3. I guess it could have something to do with sites being more and more 'correctly' coded thanks to Internet Explorer losing quite many users to FireFox and Opera (and other alternatives). Internet Explorer really helped in screwing up the net with all its non-standard HTML e.t.c. support (which made people coding less and less accurate for the web).
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Offline bhoggettTopic starter

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Re: Browser situation update?
« Reply #22 on: May 21, 2006, 02:25:01 PM »
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Legerdemain wrote:
I thought one of the main reasons for coding everything related to layout in CSS was to ensure that the page worked nicely (to browse, not looking perfect layoutwise) even without CSS-support (in this particular case I do not know which site is discussed, so I can't comment on that very issue).

This would be assuming what you are trying to do is possible without CSS, which as things stand it isn't in our case.

I don't think CSS was really meant as a way to ensure sites worked nicely with browsers that don't support it. That doesn't make a lot of sense to me. If you are using CSS (and Javascript/DOM) for your interface, it's probably because you can't do it very well or at all with HTML.

In our case the game interface "works" without CSS in that it displays. Unfortunately without CSS it cannot handle the layout properly, so it becomes unusable. Trying to duplicate everything done with CSS by using just HTML defeats the purpose, even if we could do it that way.

If, as expected, we move to an AJAX interface, that would only exacerbate the problem because AJAX relies on Javascript and CSS to avoid redrawing the page every time information changes. For us this will cut down on a lot of bandwidth usage, which is important for a free project like this.

Hence my moan about the inadequacy of Amiga browsers and the disappointment at the slow rate of progress in all of the browser projects currently mooted. We can (and do) have Windows, Linux and MacOS X users. We could easily be played on a BSD, QNX, BeOS/Zeta or Solaris system, Even on really marginal OSs like SkyOS.

But not on any AmigaOS or derivative.  :-(
Bill Hoggett
 

Offline dammy

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Re: Browser situation update?
« Reply #23 on: May 21, 2006, 02:33:52 PM »
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Isn't there a beta due out soon for the KHTML project?


Thought that was suppost to be out last Jan/Feb?  

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Offline Hyperspeed

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Re: Browser situation update?
« Reply #24 on: May 21, 2006, 11:16:57 PM »
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by bhoggett:
As for sites being just vanilla HTML - well, I suppose some people wish we were still using ASCII based BBS systems on dial-up or browsing using text browsers only. The thing is everything changes and moves on to better things, and I can certainly see a case in a couple of years when people with outdated browsers are just going to find they can't access most sites on the net, be they simple web pages or fully fledged web applications or games.


I agree totally that the IBrowse team should set a date and keep to it but then IBrowse 2.3 is such a good quality bit of coding I am happy to wait that little bit extra for IBrowse 2.4 - they will almost certainly add extra features without compromising reliability.

As for "everything changes and moves on..." - did VHS VCRs become obsolete yet? We've had Betamax, Laserdisc, VCD, DVD and now TiVO and yet 99% of us are still using VHS cassettes to record TV!

Same goes for petrol (/gas)... for some reason, despite it causing wars, polluting the atmosphere and causing global warming we all put petrol into our vehicles instead of using electric, fuel cell or bio-diesel cars.

Bicycles haven't moved on in basic design for a hundred years!

People are still using Amigas that are between 10-21yrs old!

"If it ain't broke... don't fix it!" ... and if you want to update it make sure everyone can use it.
 

Offline itix

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Re: Browser situation update?
« Reply #25 on: May 22, 2006, 12:22:40 AM »
@dammy

KHTML alone doesnt give you a browser.
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Offline Piru

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Re: Browser situation update?
« Reply #26 on: May 22, 2006, 01:00:55 AM »
@Hyperspeed
Quote
As for "everything changes and moves on..." - did VHS VCRs become obsolete yet?

Years ago.

Quote
We've had Betamax, Laserdisc, VCD, DVD and now TiVO and yet 99% of us are still using VHS cassettes to record TV!

I haven't even seen a VHS cassette in 5-7 years or so.
 

Offline Doobrey

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Re: Browser situation update?
« Reply #27 on: May 22, 2006, 01:26:07 AM »
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Piru wrote:
I haven't even seen a VHS cassette in 5-7 years or so.


Which by some strange coincidence, was the last time there was anything worth recording from British TV :-(
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Offline itix

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Re: Browser situation update?
« Reply #28 on: May 22, 2006, 07:00:59 AM »
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I agree totally that the IBrowse team should set a date and keep to it but then IBrowse 2.3 is such a good quality bit of coding I am happy to wait that little bit extra for IBrowse 2.4 - they will almost certainly add extra features without compromising reliability.


That is quite funny in fact... My main browser on Amiga is still IBrowse 1.22 from 1998.
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Offline Hyperspeed

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Re: Browser situation update?
« Reply #29 from previous page: May 23, 2006, 01:10:38 AM »
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by Piru:
I haven't even seen a VHS cassette in 5-7 years or so.


That's a terrible shame, you could have recorded 'horror rock' group Lordi winning the Eurovision Song Contest for 'the land of pony trekking and camping'.

:-D

You could have used an Amiga to genlock gothic symbols and victory motifs over the tape too.