Dave Haynie (lead engineer of C= Amiga) opinion on Amiga Successors

[Nitro]

@bloodline
Ok there is enough logic in your post, that even I can see that the only future for now is x86.  Scary.

[bloodline]

Nitro wrote:
@bloodline
Ok there is enough logic in your post, that even I can see that the only future for now is x86.  Scary.

I should clarify that, if IBM and/or Freescale were to pump some serious money into their CPU products, they could easily make PPC competitor to the current x86 offerings. IBM proved this when they made the PPC 970 (G5), which was designed to compete with the AthlonXP (The AMD K7)and the Pentium4 (intel Netbust)... which it did very well! Now they need to compete with processors like the Athlon64 (The AMD K8) and the new Intel Core Duo (Intel Yonah)... so a new architecture is required.

Don't worry about the idea of x86, it's just an ISA :-) as I said before... it's nothing more than an option in the compiler, if AMD wanted they could put a PPC ISA frontend on to their K8 architecture and create a really powerfull PPC chip (ok, there are a few technical issues that would need to be addressed... the K8 is geared towards x86, but the theory is correct).

-Edit-
The Apple switch to x86 is due to this stagnation of desktop capable PPC chips. intel was chosen to provide the CPU's for the first range of x86 Macs because;

1. They have huge capacity, so no cpu shortages like Apple suffered with from both Freescale and IBM
2. They do great discounts for volume buyers ;-)
3. intel provide a complete solution... from the cpu, to the chipset to the motherboard design. Steve Jobs keynote address a few days ago cleary stated that intel had done the Hardware work on the new Macs!

[Nitro]

I wonder what kind of a bussiness path IBM will take.  Like you said they could design processors to compete with processors like the Athlon64 and Intel Core Duo.  They big question is will they?  Bill Gates said that Linux is nothing to worry about, it was IBM.  If there is a stagnation of development of desktop capable PPC chips, like you said, then the only clear path for many of Amiga developers is to go to PC hardware.  A smart move by Airsoft Softwair, as to develope in all directions with Hollywood 2.0.

[T_Bone]

Nitro wrote:
We closed out the end of the year with our first orders for the Open Server Workstation and our first big (50,000 units)"  That`s alot of MorphOS compatiable computers is it not.

It sure as hell is! Nice Job!

Unless they're running MorphOS and using Amiga applications though, it doesn't affect the Amiga userbase much. Does anyone know what these machines are being used for?

[Nitro]

@T_Bone
I`d say they have The OpenSolaris project, or Linux in mind.
More than likely none will use MorphOS.  The Genesi plan was "ride the linux wave".  It will atleast keep a bussiness going that makes hardware that can run MorphOS.  Perhaps some of people that use these machine will try MorphOS.
This atleast is good for users that the hardware still be available.  The Morph community kinda accepted this.

[bloodline]

Nitro wrote:
I wonder what kind of a bussiness path IBM will take.  Like you said they could design processors to compete with processors like the Athlon64 and Intel Core Duo.  They big question is will they?  Bill Gates said that Linux is nothing to worry about, it was IBM.  

IBM aren't interested in the desktop (They never really have been!), they recently sold off their PC devision. IBM make "super computers", chips for others (AMD, Sony, Microsoft, Nintendo the list is endless) and they sell services...

If there is a stagnation of development of desktop capable PPC chips, like you said, then the only clear path for many of Amiga developers is to go to PC hardware.  A smart move by Airsoft Softwair, as to develope in all directions with Hollywood 2.0.

I don't see where the next desktop PPC cpu is going to come from, Apple couldn't either.

There really isn't any need to make a desktop/laptop PPC CPU... the companies which produce PPC CPU's are doing very well in the embedded market (Cars, washing machines, games consoles etc...).

[yester64]

Piru wrote:
@yester64

If someone has no freaking knowledge about compiling he/she has to stick with what ever comes with the disk.

Piru wrote:Hmmm, and he/she can't use binary packages?
Last I checked I could install and keep uptodate linux without any compiling.

Yes, that would be fine. But the truth is, there are software were you don't get a binaery. Of course, you maybe stick just to whats available as a binaery.

And the linux community, well most have the "read the stupid howto faq" attitute, which makes you hate linux pretty much.

Piru wrote:Yeah well, at least the faq is there to read. Agreed some of the community are a bit rude, but I've always found help when I needed it.
Still they do have a point: If you're never going to try to solve the problems yourself, you're never going to learn either. And, if you're not ready to learn, then Windows XP is better for you... :-)

Thats not the point. The point is, that a system should be userfriendly. I've seen Linux for awhile and yes, its getting better.
But still, if it comes to the ease of use, windows is a better choice. Or you don't see linux as a competing system to windows. Then it does not matter at all.

[A3KOne]

Nitro wrote:
Why should OS4 be ported to x86?  I think AROS has came along way.  Anyone who feels they must have an AmigaOS on x86 can use it.  It`s open source, Aros users are all for people helping to develope it.  It may one day be better than OS4.  They choices are all ready in front of everyone.  It doesn`t have a big AMIGA sticker on it. (Just for hobby users)

And you have answered the "why" question.

Aros has came a long way....It may ONE DAY be better than OS4...

OS4 could be recompiled to x86 in no time (and probably already has been) and in an instant it would be lightyears ahead of Aros.  The Amiga community has always been fractured by people wanting to protect their interests as opposed to moving the platform forward.  It looks like Aros is potentially another one.  If AmigaOS was ported to x86, what would that do to Aros?

[bloodline]

A3KOne wrote:

Nitro wrote:
Why should OS4 be ported to x86?  I think AROS has came along way.  Anyone who feels they must have an AmigaOS on x86 can use it.  It`s open source, Aros users are all for people helping to develope it.  It may one day be better than OS4.  They choices are all ready in front of everyone.  It doesn`t have a big AMIGA sticker on it. (Just for hobby users)

And you have answered the "why" question.

Aros has came a long way....It may ONE DAY be better than OS4...

OS4 could be recompiled to x86 in no time (and probably already has been) and in an instant it would be lightyears ahead of Aros.  The Amiga community has always been fractured by people wanting to protect their interests as opposed to moving the platform forward.  It looks like Aros is potentially another one.  If AmigaOS was ported to x86, what would that do to Aros?

Nothing would change for the AROS team, AROS isn't x86... it multiplatform! Actually the x86 version of AROS might gain some software if anyone made something for the x86 verison of AOS4 :-D

[dammy]

Ok there is enough logic in your post, that even I can see that the only future for now is x86. Scary.

X86 is dead, X86-64 is the future.

Dammy

[yester64]

The Amiga was defined over hardware & software. So yes, hardware is also an issue.
The thing is, that there is only the system left. So no hardware.
Today you use, what everybody uses as a machine. So nothing special anymore.
The software is nice, but it is only intended for those who like use an modern Amiga OS today, not for the masses, which is contrare to the Amiga idea.
Personally, i think any attempt to bring something out and place it on the market to compete against Windows, will have a hard, hard time.
A transition to a new OS coult be done, if developer would port their software. Well, that mostlikly will not happen.
It is unfortunate, but i guess, thats why most people own a PC and nobody, except Amigalovers, notice that there is even an Amiga OS.
I think, thats just how it is and i doubt it will change.
Like i said, to me Amiga as a machine is death. As far as software i agree that the Amiga OS getting better and more modern. But it is only targeted to Amiga owners. Well, i guess thats fine. :-(

[Nitro]

@ dammy X86 is dead, X86-64 is the future.

Ok you know what I meant.  Instead of pancakes it`s waffles we should think about.

[Fats]

A3KOne wrote:

The Amiga community has always been fractured by people wanting to protect their interests as opposed to moving the platform forward.  It looks like Aros is potentially another one.  If AmigaOS was ported to x86, what would that do to Aros?

AROS is open source so by default the code can be used to improve other platforms, be it MorphOS, OS4 or OS4/x86.

Staf.

[A3KOne]

Fats wrote:

A3KOne wrote:

The Amiga community has always been fractured by people wanting to protect their interests as opposed to moving the platform forward.  It looks like Aros is potentially another one.  If AmigaOS was ported to x86, what would that do to Aros?

AROS is open source so by default the code can be used to improve other platforms, be it MorphOS, OS4 or OS4/x86.

Staf.

I don't disagree with you, but my point remains.

It appears that Aros may have created yet another faction that does not want any future for Amiga unless it is of their design.  At least that I what I get from some of the posts.

There are many in the Morphos Community that are that way.  IF Amiga Inc would have produced a top notch machine with powerful custom coprocessors and updated the OS to modern standards, many in Camp Morphos would have written pages telling everyone how bad it is.  There are a large number in the Amiga community that do not care about it at all...they are motivated only by their own desires and if something is not in their designs, it is wrong.

This same thread has been going on over on aw.net and Dave Haynie himself has been involved.  I agree with pretty much everything he has said over there.

What Hyperion is doing is akin to this...
Imagine that computers were cars and the OS is the fuel...the Amiga was a car and fuel provider that was decade ahead of Ford and Chevrolet (or Daimler or whoever) and Microsoft (the fuel company).  Amiga did not build a car for two decades and the fuel stayed the same.

Now Hyperion has upgraded the fuel but has made it where it works exclusively in an ugly car that gets horrible fuel mileage, runs really slow, breaks down a lot and has no one to work on it, and has horrible safety and emissions ratings, that no one drives, few people want, and fewer people can afford.

In the mean while, Chevrolet has built a car that goes really fast, gets great gas mileage, is reliable, cheap to repair, parts are readily available for it, and it is safe...and it costs less than half what the Amiga car costs.  There are tens of millions of people driving it already and many are looking for a better performing fuel, including several million who were Amiga drivers twenty years ago and would love to relive the memory.

Hyperion is afraid that if their gas will work in the Chevrolet, people will pump it and drive off without paying for it, when the fact is that people who want to steal gas will steal it anyway.

They are not looking at the fact that so few people will buy their gas that they will not make anything anyway.  If it ran in the Chevrolet, the amount they sell would more than make up for a few drive-offs.

Amiga on x86 makes sense.
I like Hyperion. I am a fan of their work...but...
If a fuel company did what Hyperion is doing, they would be the laughingstock of the business world.  

[T_Bone]

A3KOne wrote:

There are many in the Morphos Community that are that way.  IF Amiga Inc would have produced a top notch machine with powerful custom coprocessors and updated the OS to modern standards, many in Camp Morphos would have written pages telling everyone how bad it is.

Many bought pegs and use MOS because A1's were expensive/unavailable. I think many would jump ship and become reds if they could buy AmigaOSx86 for <$200 and throw it on their Asus board.

it would be hard to be a MOS advocate in an era where AmigaOS4 running on modern x86 motherboards kicks it in the teeth. it would be seriously hard.

There are a large number in the Amiga community that do not care about it at all...they are motivated only by their own desires and if something is not in their designs, it is wrong.

We need to gentrify the community of these attitudes. This market has been beaten to within an inch of it's life already.

[bhoggett]

We need to gentrify the community of these attitudes. This market has been beaten to within an inch of it's life already.

Good luck to ya. I think you're aiming for the impossible because the purveyors of these attitudes will go to their graves before they change their minds.

Just look at the justifications:

- It was the only reasonable thing to do given the resources...

So, given that you have so few if any resources you take the option which will bring least revenue, therefore guaranteeing that there will never be any resources to do anything else?

- OS4 is meant for embedded systems. It was designed from ground up for that purpose

Funny, that was never even remotely mentioned until Eyetech's plans bit the dust. So, an embedded platform with a completely unfamiliar API, requiring a completely new learning curve for developers, and also no Java capability? Seems a rather cavalier and reckless approach to me, specially for a company without the resources to fund the spread of their platform themselves.

- There would have been all these x86 trolls demanding to know why it didn't run on their machine...

Simply a matter of drivers. Supply a properly designed API and documentation and people will write drivers. AROS seems to work on a  lot of motherboards, though of course not all devices are supported. Amithlon worked on a lot of systems too, despite having problems with driver delivery. Just supply a compatibility list and the responsibility is with the user to adhere to it.

- People would be able to use Windows or Linux instead and they would choose that ahead of AmigaOS...

Ever heard of multi-boot? Of course people will use other platforms for what they can't do through AmigaOS. If the apps/games appear for AmigaOS, I'm sure most would use that; if not, then at least the user knows he won't be crippled. This is already the case to some extent with AmigaOnes - there are a series of things you can do as a Linux user for which there is no alternative under AmigaOS.The only difference is that they have to do it on expensive unreliable and increasingly unavailable hardware.

Hyperion don't seem to know what they are doing from a business point of view. To the outsider, they seem to shift their apparent aims to fit in with whatever can be passed off as most plausible at any given time, irrespective of whether they have the resources or expertise to service the market they are supposed to be targetting.

So, considering Hyperion's "business plan" is most likely vapourware, and the whole original premise of bringing growth back through PPC desktops is in tatters, what happens next?

Dave speaks a lot of sense, and has done so for years, but no one's listening. Now some - a minority - are starting to ask themselves: "Did we do the right thing? Were we really justified?". Well, it doesn't matter any more. As Mikey_C himself said on AWN: "the train has left the station", and those who made the wrong choice are left sitting on the platform. There are now only two choices left: ( a ) insist that it was the right choice regardless of the mounting evidence that would suggest otherwise, or ( b ) give up, move on and treasure the memories.

If there is a problem, it's too late to fix it.