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AuthorTopic: Mission StatementII (was: Remove MORFOS/PEG from Main Fourum)  (Read 6037 times)

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Offline DaveP

Re: Mission StatementII (was: Remove MORFOS/PEG from Main Fourum)
« Reply #60 on: March 14, 2003, 07:45:38 AM »
Quote

gary_c wrote:

And the salesperson simply says "no" and walks off, that's not very good service if there's a mixer that can whisk sitting right next to the one I asked about


...and the salesperson....

I think you said it all.
Hate figure. :lol:
 

Offline takemehomegrandma

Re: Mission StatementII (was: Remove MORFOS/PEG from Main Fourum)
« Reply #61 on: March 14, 2003, 10:19:22 AM »
Quote

gary_c wrote:
HMetal wrote:
Quote
"The plan" I was referring to was the blatant advertisting and propaganda (or hijacking if you will) that certain individuals like to use all over topics where it is not only unsolicited but just plain ignorant (to the poster).

I don't agree with your assessment. Let's say someone posts a yes/no question about product A. There are two possible responses: 1) No, or 2) No, but product B, yes. Which of these is more informative?


Gary_c, of course you are right. In a healthy discussion you should be able to discuss anything and everything, from a lot of different angles. Grown ups usually can handle different oppinnions and can find arguments to discuss *their* point of view, instead of just censor away the differences.

The problem with product "A" is that there is not much to discuss. Nobody have seen it. Nobody have experiances from it. It has a lot of frustration connected to it because of constant delays and lack of info.

With product "B" on the other hand (or should we say product "M" ;-) (OH NO, he did it again! The thread is hijacked, the thread is hijacked. Quick hurry to the lifeboats. Women and children first. Lets go to amigaworld.net)) it's the other way around. There is lots to discuss. News is coming in regularly, and more important, new products such as games and applications.

That is the root to this "problem" IMO (I wouldn't even call it a problem really). Some people tends to see only the symptoms but not the root itself. But I'm sure the situation will change once there will be more about the "A" to discuss. The real problem is rather some mono-minded individuals who can not tolerate discussions outside their own narrow views.

MorphOS is Amiga done right! :)
 

  • Guest
Re: Mission StatementII (was: Remove MORFOS/PEG from Main Fourum)
« Reply #62 on: March 14, 2003, 11:27:13 AM »
basically what your saying is...the people screaming conspiracy and such are actually just angry or delusional about Pegasos/MorphOS news actually existing?

now that *couldnt possibly* believe....
 

Offline Spidey

Re: Mission StatementII (was: Remove MORFOS/PEG from Main Fourum)
« Reply #63 on: March 14, 2003, 11:55:27 AM »
Hello takemehomegrandma,

Yep, a sort of the same I wrote down on page two of this thread.
I really think that when OS4 comes available these kind of discussions will change in positive discussions of merits of the different products. Now we're dealing with a lot of speculations on all sides.

Ofcourse you'll keep people who want to "light a fire", that is unavoidable in open forums. But if you don't give them any "tinder" they can't make a big fire, in other words, don't pay attention to them :-D

Spidey
 

Offline takemehomegrandma

Re: Mission StatementII (was: Remove MORFOS/PEG from Main Fourum)
« Reply #64 on: March 14, 2003, 02:59:20 PM »
Quote

mips_proc wrote:
basically what your saying is...the people screaming conspiracy and such are actually just angry or delusional about Pegasos/MorphOS news actually existing?

now that *couldnt possibly* believe....


I´m not sure what you mean there ...

Anyway, my point is that some people seems to be very angry with the fact that a lot of threads and posts is about Pegasos/MorphOS and very few about A1/OS4. That is not because of "evil moderation" or "conspiracys". It´s because of the scew news flow and lack of products on the "A" side. No need for separate forums. No need for new websites that censor away everything but a narrow vision from a certain company. What's needed is more news and (most of all) actual products on the A1/OS4 side to get things more balanced. What's needed is a more open minded attitude from some individuals towards different oppinions. Individuals that puts up some arguments of their own to get the discussion going instead of just moan and cry "hijack hijack". BTW, Gary_c's post about this "hijacking" issue is very good and nicely written (as the posts from him always are :-)). I would like to second to his view of things in that matter.
MorphOS is Amiga done right! :)
 

Offline MarkTime

Re: Remove MORFOS/PEG from Main Fourum
« Reply #65 on: March 14, 2003, 03:39:10 PM »
My brother is in the internet business, and offered to buy a domain for $5000, a domain that had his companies trademark.

This was a few years ago, the kid who owned it, actually had the gumption to hold out for more money.  After a year or two of negotiations, which they dutifully entertained...finally they decided he wasn't really ever going to be realistic.  They brought in the lawyers and just took the domain, and paid him nothing.

It is a fact, that you cannot hold someone's trademark.  There isn't a lot of legal wiggling that can go on here...Amiga is spanish word for girlfriend, but as amusing as it would be, for people to suggest this site is really a collection of girlfriends having discussions...lmao...dang that is funny...it just isn't reality.  Amiga in this case, stands for the Amiga computer, the trademark is owned by Amiga Inc.

I had suggested a while back that Amiga should refer to a generic class of home computers, but that never really flew, so I think we are stuck.

With that said, I think Amiga, Inc. should offer to PAY for amiga.org, if they really want the name.  They should realize amiga.org could continue easily under a different name.  And they should realize they are going to upset all but their most loyal worshippers if they act rashly.  And they should WELL KNOW, they will never build a market from that group of witless geeks.

I know I should leave out that last line, but I can't.  I am simply disgusted at too deep a level by petty people who cannot handle differing opinions.
 

Offline T_Bone

Re: Remove MORFOS/PEG from Main Fourum
« Reply #66 on: March 14, 2003, 04:12:59 PM »
MarkTime wrote:
> My brother is in the internet business, and offered
> to buy a domain for $5000, a domain that had his
> companies trademark.
> This was a few years ago, the kid who owned it,
> actually had the gumption to hold out for more
> money.  After a year or two of negotiations, which
> they dutifully entertained...finally they decided he
> wasn't really ever going to be realistic.  They
> brought in the lawyers and just took the domain,
> and paid him nothing.

What were the lawyers for? AFAIK you cannot sue for domain names, and ICANN is legally responsible for name disputes.

> It is a fact, that you cannot hold someone's
> trademark.  

A domain name is an address, not a trademark. I could live on "13 Cocacola Road" and not be legally in breach of a trademark.

> There isn't a lot of legal wiggling that can go on
> here...Amiga is spanish word for girlfriend, but as
> amusing as it would be, for people to suggest this
> site is really a collection of girlfriends having
> discussions...lmao...dang that is funny...it just isn't
> reality.  Amiga in this case, stands for the Amiga
> computer, the trademark is owned by Amiga Inc.

Amiga.ORG is in the ORG TLD, which is not reserved for business, in fact, if you look at the charter for the ORG top-level domain, it was specifically NOT meant for businesses.

let's not forget that Amiga.org was called Amiga.org long before Amiga Inc was a company. How can this be? how can Amiga Inc use the name then? because an address isn't a trademark.

it's kind of moot, they own Amiga.COM. you are not entitled to every Top level Domain containing your trademark in the title. Not legally, and not according to ICANN rules.

> With that said, I think Amiga, Inc. should offer to
> PAY for amiga.org, if they really want the name.  

They have the name, as a .COM. The .ORG is unavailable, as it was taken before Amiga inc existed. You cant just start a company, then go out and commandeer preexisting websites. If that were so, I'm going to start a company called and take their name from them.

Why don't they want AMIGA.NET as well, they don't own that either? Oh yea, that wouldn't satisfy their grudge.

> They should realize amiga.org could continue
> easily under a different name.

So can any site. Does that mean Amiga.COM should be given up to one of the other companies named "Amiga"? like the Amiga hotel, etc?

This domain name bickering that happens all over the net is annoying. Addresses are not trademarks... If they were, then Wayne would own the Amiga trademark having had it first.

Oh, and my brother in law would own the trademark PowerAmiga since he owns that .com domain  :-P  Addresses arn't trademarks.
this space for rent
 

  • Guest
Re: Remove MORFOS/PEG from Main Fourum
« Reply #67 on: March 14, 2003, 04:22:48 PM »
Quote
It is a fact, that you cannot hold someone's trademark. There isn't a lot of legal wiggling that can go on here...


you can hold someones trademark on a website under certin circumstances.

it's a dot-org bieng one of the big ones.

this site was around before there was an amiga.inc and was around before 'amiga' was even the name of any entity.

if they argued they owned this domain/etc they would have to fight pretty hard for it because the courts made 'squatters rights' go away ...not all copyrights...

This site isnt trying to get Amiga.inc to buy it... it was here before them... it will probably be here when their gone... and I think if it ever came to court Wayne could plead a pretty good case.

If what you said is true...then any company could go and search for the name of any dot-com he liked.... spend 50$ on .inc with that name... and then rob the domain from the person with it... you cant do that...

but really...even if this site where amiga.inc owned...and wayne had another site... I'd go there... not here... because I'm not interested in AmigaDE or any of their products.
 

  • Guest
Re: Remove MORFOS/PEG from Main Fourum
« Reply #68 on: March 14, 2003, 04:40:59 PM »
To hopefully put an end to this, I have heard about a hundred different legal opinions from a hundred different people.  While each of you have valid points, each of them are completely pointless and useless to debate.

It all comes down to a question of "have I acted in what ICANN would consider bad faith"?  In my opinion, I don't believe so.  I have run this site, supporting the Amiga community (it is NOT run for the Amiga COMPANY, and I am NOT here to act as their free Public Relations department) for 8 years.  This is before Escom, This is before Gateway, This is long before the current owners even existed as a company and long before most of the current AI management even knew what an Amiga is.  None of them in my personal opinion have a single clue about what an Amiga was to the users it affected.

I have not sold this site to a competitor, nor have I acted in bad faith to promote other solutions.  If anything, I have tried to act in good faith where presenting every possible solution to the community equally.  The recent server relocation is an example of my dedication to becoming truly neutral.

That being said, if I am guilty of anything, it is of having personal opinions and letting those opinions interfere with this site.  For this, I publicly apologize. I only ask that you consider that it's very hard to literally be lied to by a small but important group of  people for a very long time and NOT have it show in your actions.

In the end, this site is for the Amiga community and any solution the community wants.  The Amiga community does not, nor has it ever, nor should it ever belong to Amiga Inc for the mere reason that they licensed some intangible words on paper.
 

Offline Karlos

Re: Remove MORFOS/PEG from Main Fourum
« Reply #69 on: March 14, 2003, 04:44:08 PM »
Amen!
int p; // A
 

Offline MarkTime

Re: Remove MORFOS/PEG from Main Fourum
« Reply #70 on: March 14, 2003, 05:20:13 PM »
t_bone,

I don't want anyone to think I am in favor of Amiga, Inc. taking action.

But I don't understand why the mistake of confusing a trademark with the name of a company keeps coming up over and over again.

Windows is a trademark.  The companies name is Microsoft...it isn't windows.

The sames goes for Amiga...the companies name that made the trademark?  Maybe it was originally Lorraine...and then later Commodore, and then later Escom, and then Gateway, and then licensed to Amino...or some say still held by Gateway.

Of course, I doubt Gateway is going to take action here.

But its absurd to suggest that Amiga.org predates the Amiga trademark.

It just doesn't take any kind of lawyer to know that this site was created as a fan site for Amiga computers, and so OF COURSE it was created after the Amiga computer was created (and the trademark registered).

AHHH I just so doubt Gateway is really going to do anything about this site, that its just an idle threat on the part of Amiga, Inc.

but I will comment on your other thoughts, in a later thread...and see if I can clarify, or if I made any mistakes....give me a chance to find out more....

 

Offline MarkTime

Re: Remove MORFOS/PEG from Main Fourum
« Reply #71 on: March 14, 2003, 05:26:53 PM »
ok, to answer the other questions...

the lawyers are for suing in Federal Court.
You must demonstrate someone has a confusingly similar name (Amiga.org re: Amiga, Inc.) and that they are acting in bad faith.

Hense, I don't think my post was wrong, only that I didn't understand that its a bit more difficult for Amiga, Inc. to act in this case...as compared to my brothers.

this is u.s. law, btw, for people not familiar....

Anyway, my brother's case was easier, because he was dealing with a cyber squatter, who most definately was acting in bad faith.

Amiga.org is not acting in bad faith at all.

I wasn't suggesting they hit up Amiga, Inc for money...btw, only that Amiga, Inc. should offer money...(if they really want it)....

 

  • Guest
Re: Remove MORFOS/PEG from Main Fourum
« Reply #72 on: March 14, 2003, 05:47:49 PM »
Quote
Amiga.org is not acting in bad faith at all.
Thank you.

Quote
I wasn't suggesting they hit up Amiga, Inc for money...btw, only that Amiga, Inc. should offer money...(if they really want it)....
This whole thing came about because somewhere the rumor was started that I had sold this site, including the kitchen sink, to Amiga Inc's competitor.  

If that were true, they would have a cut and clear case to remove the domain.  It is not however true and I have continually tried to point out the truth.

This boils down to one thing.  There was an element here (Mike Bouma be his name) who continually harrassed and pounded me because Amiga.org was hosted on Amiga Inc's servers.  He (and to be fair, at least two others) felt that since I was using their servers, I should work as Amiga Inc's free public relations department, forsaking all other alternatives (MOS, UAE, etcetera).

As a direct result, I worked with friends to come up with a way to host Amiga.org on our own.  When we moved the servers, Mike Bouma and crew realized they had lost their zealotous ability to try and force my actions of this Web site.  

As such, they then used the server move to float a rumor that we had "sold out" to Fleecy (who is prone to reactionism), which placed amigaworld.net at the center of the controversy, gaining membership by nothing more than the lies told by Mike Bouma.  This, as far as I can tell was simply a desire for retaliatory action by Mike Bouma for his cause of "Amiga purity" and not for anything realistic.

For the record, I wish the best to amigaworld.net as I feel Davey will do a good job.  As they are learning however, there is no such thing as an Amiga community without controversy.  This is not a place for puritanical zealots of any measure, no matter what they support.
 

Offline T_Bone

Re: Remove MORFOS/PEG from Main Fourum
« Reply #73 on: March 14, 2003, 07:57:50 PM »
> I don't want anyone to think I am in favor of Amiga,
> Inc. taking action.

Sorry, I didn't mean to imply that you were.

About the trademark thing... I'm not saying it's invalid because a trademark and company name are two different things, I'm saying a trademark and an address are two different things. An address specifies "where' something is, not what it is or who owns that location. People incorrectly think of an internet address as a "name" when it should be viewed just as you would a street address.

Seeing as how Amiga Inc, already operate on Amiga dotcom, saying the Org (which is intended for organizations, not businesses) confuses the trademark is weak.

lets look at precident... What company in the US uses a dot-ORG instead of a dot-COM for it's corporate website?

Amiga claiming BAD FAITH?, oh man, I could have a FIELD day   :-D
this space for rent
 

Offline takemehomegrandma

Re: Remove MORFOS/PEG from Main Fourum
« Reply #74 on: March 14, 2003, 09:57:12 PM »
Quote

T_Bone wrote:

I'm saying a trademark and an address are two different things ...


There are lots of examples of completely different companies that share some common parts of their regeistered company names. Add trademarks to that. Add worldwide to that. Every single one could make claims for a dotcom address with that common part of the name, and all claims would be valid. But addresses and corporate names/trademarks are (as you say) two different things. *Who is first wins*.

Quote

Seeing as how Amiga Inc, already operate on Amiga dotcom, saying the Org (which is intended for organizations, not businesses) confuses the trademark is weak.


Absolutely! Especially since it's a community domain and the community was here *long* before the current AmigaInc.

Quote

Amiga claiming BAD FAITH?, oh man, I could have a FIELD day   :-D


 :-D  :-D  :-D  :-D  :-D
MorphOS is Amiga done right! :)