Genesi: More Details about STBs, Pegasos I, and OS4

[catohagen]

>Who is going to Hack and Pirate OS4?

probably the mos coders
i cant imagine amiga/os4 users cracking their
own os...

[cdfr]

@Mikey_C and other blind followers.

I'd have to agree with the sentiments posted here as well. IMHO, The Posting by BBRV is way OTT. It has gotten personal and that is not good Business practice.

And the post from Ben Hermans he was answering to was not personal and was good business practice ?

It is a mazing to see how blind followers can criticize one side when their side is doing exactely the same thing.

[Calen]

@BBRV

We our morons now cause alot of us believe the path of OS4 and the work Hyperion has done for Amiga is what we choose?
Sorry but your way out of line here, don't go and label people just because they don't believe in your product.
Now go take your comments like this elsewhere, you do have forums/site that our based upon your product, now go use em.

And take that shovel out of your hand while your at it.

 :roll:

[gary_c]

Alkemyst wrote:

I dont respond to the points you make cos they are just excuses for BB & i have no time for such rubbish.

I think you're sore because I accused you of trying to stir up trouble by posting Bill Buck's comments here. It has nothing to do with the merits of my specific points, which you haven't talked about.

Even JonnaK has the guts to say so with BB lastest comment.

JoannaK does speak her mind, to her credit. I've also made it clear I don't agree with every what and how of Bill Buck's posts here (look back up the thread again if you don't believe me), but that doesn't blind me to what he's doing with Genesi, etc.

But because of your connection to phoenix & thus to genesi you wont.

I won't? Sorry to disappoint you, but I've got my own opinions. An organization of yes men is pretty worthless, which everyone involved there realizes.

I will reply to others whos comments are worthy.

As you please. A lot of people here are making good comments that deserve a reply. I'm afraid I may respond to your posts regardless, but I'll understand if you can't or don't want to follow up.

-- gary_c

[gary_c]

catohagen wrote:

probably the mos coders
i cant imagine amiga/os4 users cracking their
own os...

Of course not. The Amiga platform has always been totally free of piracy. Everyone knows that. ;-)

You guys are missing the point. Bill Buck isn't trying to encourage cracking AmigaOS's dongle. He's just stating what a lot of people have been saying for months now, and something that's probably true: sooner or later, and probably sooner, AmigaOS will be running on the Pegasos MB, via some aftermarket tinkering. His point is, since this may well happen anyway, why not beat the pirates to it by offering a shrinkwrapped/downloadable AOS4 for Pegasos? Then Hyperion and Amiga, Inc. could profit from increased sales. He's made the offer, but no response from Hyperion.

-- gary_c

[Skyraker]

@bbrv

A couple of things....

1) I think you misunderstand the role of a clerk... a clerk advises magistrates on points of law and therefore in court is more important than either the defence or prosecution lawyers.

2) You're a prick


Best Regards

sKy

[SlimJim]

@ Alkemyst
 
Firstly, for completeness, you should prabably have
included a few of the earlier posts in the ANN thread, to
give the whole, objective picture. It's not changing the
incfentive of the post one bit, but still one should always
do that if nothing else, to avoid being accused of quoting
out of context.
 
@ all
 
So here we go again.
 
My take on the situation:

Bill is working while the iron is hot. New updates and
constant postings make sure the user-base (i.e. us) feel
that stuff is always happening in the world of Genesi. This
is a good thing PR-wise, especially when getting so much
free help - their frenzy of activity contrasts beautifully
against the moody PR-silence of the Triarchy. And for the
news-starved Amiga community, the loud voice of Genesi
is a welcome one, if only for giving us something to talk
about and to disagree with.
 
The Triarchy, on the other hand (these days mainly
represented by Hyperion) are playing another game. They
make comment in forums, just like Genesi (in this I
consider the voice of Bill Buck being the one of Genesi),
but as opposed to Genesi, they almost only respond
to questions/allegations/accusations. The actual
PR-postings from Hyperion are few and far apart, and
then mostly technical in nature.
 
The reason for this difference is of course that Hyperion is
the actual developer of the OS. It's reasonable to assume
they have less time to think about PR-stunts, in the same
way as you don't see key MOS-developers posting all that
frequently. Bill Buck/Genesi on the other hand has
promotion as their main profession. It's thus a little unfair
to compare PR-strategies between Genesi and Hyperion.
 Rather one should compare between AmigaInc and
Genesi. Not that the end result would differ - currently
Genesi wins on walk-over...
 
After having gone through this long chain of thought, and
concluded (unsurprisinly) that Genesi beats the Triarchy
in the PR-department, it puzzles me to see threads like
this - seeing Bill throwing away the PR advantage he has
worked so hard to gain. But first: Having read through all
the different comments, I take it the status is currently
that:
 
- Bill wants AOS4 on the Pegasos. Fair enough. No doubt
that will sell quite a lot more Pegasos'es.
 
- He do not want the AOS4 dongle. Infact he encourages
"clever boys and gals" to find a solution to this problem,
since Genesi won't do themelves. Now in all fairness, this
could be a call for enduring third-party entrepeneurs to
licence AOS4 from Hyperion. But, when adressing Ben
Hermans trying to have AOS4 on the Pegasos "legally"
instead, Bill leaves too much room for intrepetation for my
taste, which also Hans-Jörg Frieden noted in a later post.
This is subtle (and in the reposted item here, Bill says they
do not condone hacking), but the sentiment is still there
and it sounds very bad indeed.
 
- I do not know anything about Ben Hermans or of Mr. Bill
Bucks' personal lives. And I don't really care. I don't know
if Ben is a legal clerc or a lawyer, but it's clear he took
offence when Bill referred to him as the former. Why Bill,
already having the high PR-ground against Hyperion (as
outlined above), would make this an issue is beyond me. It
can only be considered a PR-blunder. The same can be
said about every time he comments on the AOS4
development progress - why trying cheap shots when you
already have the PR-advantage? It only makes an
impression that you are getting desperate and everything
is not as it seems - let's hope not, for all the wide-eyed
MOS fans out there.
 
Now, even sadder is of course that Ben, being handed this
wide open gap in the Genesi PR-armour, fails to grab that
opportunity to gain the high ground. Instead he replies in
kind, with some more personal assumptions that he knows
will be taken as a personal insult by Bill. That's not a good
strategy, but following the earlier line of though, not so
surprising for the PR underdog.
 
Far more surprising is that Bill continues down this
PR-nighmare he himself started so innocently by digging
into Bens credentials and adding further insults. Once
again freely giving up the high ground he has worked so
hard to achieve in the last few months. If Ben just
responds politely, Genesi has just lost several PR-
points for no reason whatsover.
 
Incomprehensible.

.
SlimJim

[Mikey_C]

Slim Jim.

A well reasoned out and very articulated post if I may say.

I would also add that I agree with nearly all of the points you make apart from the OS4 hacking business. To me it comes across as if people are being encorouged to break the dongle protection in order for OS4 to run on the Pegasos.

If that remark had been posted by anyone else, fair enough, but when it comes from the main rival to OS4......

[catohagen]

> He's made the offer, but no response from
> Hyperion.

lets see...
Eyetech found a hardware solution, Eyetech have a licence(?) for running AmigaOS on their hardware.

Hyperion have a licence to port/enhance AmigaOS
to powerpc.

If AmigaOS is ever going to run on other hardware
you gotta pay for the licence to do so ? right ?

Why does Buck skip the licence part, and start
bugging Hyperion with questions, when its Amiga Inc. he needs to speak to ?

And I would assume Bill Buck know this ? the licence part ?

So why does he do these public postings ?

Maybe its because the majority of the community
really would like pegasos hardware and AmigaOS
as operating system, as many times reflected in polls around different amiga sites, and with
airing the 'cracking the OS4 dongle' idea, he maybe hopes those 'pegasos/amigaos' people jumps into the mos community....just a hunch

[PasiM]

Off-topic:

To Whom It May Concern

I just wanted to let you know that there are propably a lot of people like me, who stay in the background and just enjoy the jolly good fights in the Amiga-scene.

I sincerely believe that I speak on behalf of  many lurkers when I make this wish: please keep up with the personal insults, mud throwing and shouting, I LOVE IT! It doesn't get us anywhere, but it sure is fun to follow!! This thread, for example, is fun, but it could be so much better :-D One hint: before posting, never think if you would say the same things face to face in front of this person, just press the Submit button, Fire  & Forget!! I'm waiting on the other side for your unfiltered flow of thoughts.  :-D :-D

Before anyone else says it, I will: I'm not better than any other here, maybe worse; I just prefer belonging to the audience, for now. Hmm, and by sending this message I just changed the side..

 Well,  have to crawl back to the bushes now,
Thanks!
   :-)

[BlackMonk]

I'm actually somewhat offended that this lunatic is associating himself with West Point.  You don't learn business practices in WP, what relevence does military training have?  He learned how to be an engineer and program Fortran on punch cards, so what?  That only shows that his formal training way back when is completely out of date when compared to current programming practices.  He even has the audacity to imply that he was an Army Ranger--no mention of Georgia?  And resigned his commission instead of retired?  The hell?  Why phrase it like that?

My father also graduated from West Point and also was trained on punch cards.  The difference is that he kept up with the discipline and teaches at DAU ( http://www.dau.mil ) now as a retired LTC.

His entire "background" spcheal was nothing more than a bit of age elitism, it appears.  West Point generally tries to instill honor and integrity.  Bill Buck apparently didn't pay attention to those values either through the school or his time in the military as shown by his indirect encouragement of piracy and all this stupid public mudslinging.

Ok, so Ben might not be a perfect angel, either, but Bill's association of himself with West Point is like spitting in the eyes of all the decent men and women in the armed forces.  It's insulting.  Bill Buck tries to make himself seem like some type of Renaissance Man and intellectual but Christ, he destroys that everytime he writes like a non-native English speaker.  I know Scandanavians/Europeans who aren't even in university/college yet who write better than that.

And this is supposed to be representative of a West Point graduate?  For those who keep making the snide, "well, it must be a military tactic, eh Bill?" please keep in mind that he's not representitive of what 1) most US Army officers should be and 2) what most US Army officers ARE.

I'm not even in the military (though my brother, father, his two sisters and one of their husbands, one of my mother's sisters, and both grandfathers are/were) and I'm taking offense.  It pains me to think that someone like my father would be lumped into the same group as someone like Bill Buck.

I just want to say to those who think he is in some shape or form a representitive of US military officer integrity/honor/ethics--he's not.  He's a disgrace.  I'm glad he was decomissioned (oh, sorry, he "resigned his commission" before sticking with things long enough to retire, I guess) as his presence in the US Army would only drag them down.

[SlimJim]

Mikey_C wrote:
Slim Jim.

A well reasoned out and very articulated post if I may say.

 
Well, thankyou!
 

I would also add that I agree with nearly all of the points you make apart from the OS4 hacking business. To me it comes across as if people are being encorouged to break the dongle protection in order for OS4 to run on the Pegasos.

If that remark had been posted by anyone else, fair enough, but when it comes from the main rival to OS4......

 
But the fact is it can be interpreted both ways, and it
would be unfair not to consider both (most people tend
just to choose either interpretation and stick ferviously to
that - never a wise course of action). But I think we can all agree that
it sounds very bad, no matter what was Mr. Bucks
real intention.
.
SlimJim

[BlackMonk]

For the record, I have no vested interest in favoring Bill Buck over Ben whatever-his-name-is.  All I've seen from Bill Buck has been insane ramblings and outlandish accusations.  I'm primarily a PC user who has never owned an Amiga in my life.  I hang around here to see about possibly getting an Amiga when I have some spare cash.

As a result, I somewhat follow the A1/AOS4 and Pegasos/MOS debates just to see if there's anything solid to go on instead of fluff and flamewars.

I haven't said anything either pro or con about either of these personalities before but after Bill Buck's statements lauding his past, I could not help myself.

Considering the past that he lauded and the airs he's put on, I find him a disgrace.  He's shown remarkably little tact and certainly no honor or integrity in his stupid little public jabs.  It's a disgrace that he chooses to make sure everyone knows his past, in detail, as if it somehow makes him a better person.  It's a disgrace that he's saying, "look, I'm the product of a West Point education!" (more or less)

I know what Amiga hardware/software solution I will NOT be pursuing in the future.  Yes, maybe the Pegasos/MOS solution will be faster or more stable or have more features, but I cannot support someone of such questionable character.  Maybe Ben hides his pettiness better, I don't know.  I don't care.  Why?  Because Bill Buck relishes the attention he gets.  Maybe he's going with the "any publicity is good publicity" theory but all he's done, with me at least, is tarnish the integrity and reputation of the products he is associated with.

It's like that company, Elbox? that put that crap in their drivers that disabled your hard drive or some such.  Maybe their products are great besides that little incident, but that's a breach of trust that many people won't soon forget.  For this case, it's one small part of Pegasos/MOS that's souring me to the whole thing.

I suppose other people enjoy seeing his antics.  Hey, more power to ya.  I, for one, don't--especially coming from a "West Point graduate".

[SlimJim]

- double post -

[Vincent]

I've said this before, and I'll say it again.

These forums are not the place you want mud-slinging between companies.  It gets the market nowhere, and fast.

The business between companies should be conducted in a private way, just between them.  When they have come to an arrangement/disagreement they should give reasonable reasons why.  Preferrably in joint statements.

If that ever happens (which I severely doubt after reading this thread) We will be able to stick together and appreciate the differences between the products on offer.  This way all alternatives are given a fair chance.

This community is already shrinking because of the past.  If things continue the way they are, no-one's going to get out alive.  The companies are burying each other - this isn't helping anyone.

What we need is friendly competition, not all this sh*t.

Differences between the people at the different companies should not be brought out in the public eye.  There's no place for them here.

This is a difficult time for all of us here (and has been for quite sometime), but things are looking up just now, with the different choices of next-gen hard/software coming along.  If we can all put the differences aside, we can get through this, and then we will ALL be in a healthier place.

As I said in a previous post to BBRV (and this applies to ALL companies):

Making enquiries about the people here (ie what they would like to see in future products) is generally ok with me, but not the blatant advertising/mud throwing that is going on.  Ask Wayne for proper advertising places.  Post your news in the proper places.  Keep personal opinions to yourself.

Here's hoping for a better future for ALL of us.

Even if I'm not a fan of certain products, if it's in the best interest for Amiga, then I'll pay attention to it, support it and make sure other (relevant) people know about it aswell.  And I hope that other people here will do the same.



As an afterthought, I'm not proof-reading this, so it may come out wrong.  This is not a personal attack on anyone I've mentioned.  Sorry for the mistakes in the order/grammar of this, but it's straight from the heart (man that sounds corny).

[Bandaren]

PasiM

Well said. And you know what?

It's even more fun to think about what could have been accomplished during theese post-Amiga Tech. days if Bplan-Eyetech-Escena-Hyperion-Genesi-Amiga Inc. and all the others I forgot to mention had worked together since day 1.

It's the amiga users who get screwed here, not Amiga Inc not Hyperion not Genesi.

Dan Andersson