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Offline CatHerderTopic starter

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Re: Who currently owns the rights
« Reply #29 on: November 15, 2004, 06:50:56 AM »
Quote
As far as the drawing power a tiny all in one Amiga would have , I would have to say it would be pretty small.

... I don't know that the nostalgia would be there for an Amiga the same way. (Or the C64 for that matter)


You have to be kidding.  :-o

A C64 RetroGamer would sell literally millions and millions (you know how many C64's Commodre sold right? :) The C64 has one large issue -- TULIP: they have wacky plans of producing a pile of actual C64s for sale in 3rd world countries in Africa etc... (wacky, wacky, wacky! These guys shoulda been in the Amiga history books, they'd fit right in...)  But I still think TULIP would lisence C64 RetroGamers because the market potential is huge.

[color=ff0000]C64 Units sold: 22,000,000[/color] (some sources say 17,000,000)
[color=0000ff]Intellivision units sold: 3,100.000[/color]
[color=008000]Atari units sold: 3,000,000 [/color]

That's 7 times as many as either of the other game systems we're talking about, and over 3 times as many combined! The C64 RetroGamer would sell like doughnuts at a police convention. And if there is nobody already working on one, I'd be flat out amazed. TULIP has the tech, TULIP is trying to produce a new cost reduced version, and I'm sure they'd love the cash flow...

And an Amiga RetroGamer would sell millions as well.

Amiga sales by 1993: 4,850,000

The Amiga games are just that good and STILL look that good on a TV. I was goofing around with some CD32 games (original CDs I should add) on the ol XBox tonight (Lil' Divil and Pinball Fantasies -- both of which play right from the CD) and they look spectacular and play just as great as they always did. If the technology (the chipset etc) is available out there, I sure want to find out who to talk to. I already know I can get the angel funding, it's just a matter of getting the chipsets and rights to reproduce the tech for game units.

These little suckers on demo in Wal*Marts across the world would sell millions. And that's not even taking into account any of the other large chains! (of course it would have to wait until next year... but they'd still sell as many, and the cost to produce would be lower and the chips would be even smaller so any way you look at it, it's a win win).

This is just too good of an idea.
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Offline bloodline

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Re: Who currently owns the rights
« Reply #30 on: November 15, 2004, 11:05:58 AM »
Quote

CatHerder wrote:
The BoXer was a computer, with PCI slots, usb, etc. I'm talking stand-alone retro gaming, not a new computer. The one thing the boXer showed was that you could indeed shove  the Amiga chipset into one small chip...


No, the Boxer was Chipset emulation on an FPGA, it did not use the original design, but was a new chip to the same specifications, which is a much better idea and a lot cheaper than trying to rework old chip designs.

Also, I think no one would buy it or a C64 "game unit". but if you used an XScale with software emulation, that could emulate an Amiga, an Atari, a C64 etc... in a single box... that would sell to the retro gamer. As mentioned, I have no idea how you would emulate the functionality of the floppy based games in a user friendly way.

Offline Samuar

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Re: Who currently owns the rights
« Reply #31 on: November 15, 2004, 02:54:00 PM »
I like the ideas mentioned here. A good productive discussion.

The idea of cheaply reproducing a classic amiga, using less chips and making it widely available (and hopefully:) cheap does appeal.

After all, there is a project which has created a C64 on an ATX board, i believe called the CommodoreOne.

http://www.go64.de/english/frames/commodoreone.html

If it can work for the C64, then surely - with our community base and perhaps some effort, a 68K ATX amiga could be brought to us.

It would have to be a cheap alternative to the PPC, which would be the difficult part - but I suspect it would be worth it. If the price is right, I see no reason why existing A1 owners would not want to own both.

Perhaps a good way to start such a project would be to target computer science students at universities - cheap labour looking to make a name for themselves in this world. We shouldn't forget such students - the SPARC processor, for example, was created by two students.

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Offline Indigo

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Re: Who currently owns the rights
« Reply #32 on: November 15, 2004, 06:44:01 PM »
You know, I saw an ad on TV last night for one of those "plug it right into the TV" joysticks, with a bunch of games included.  I've seen this for Atari, Namco, and others, but this one had games from a C64.  Which is groovy.

So how much harder is it to do up an Amiga version?  Can't be that difficult.
 

Offline CatHerderTopic starter

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Re: Who currently owns the rights
« Reply #33 on: November 16, 2004, 01:43:45 AM »
Quote

bloodline wrote:
No, the Boxer was Chipset emulation on an FPGA, it did not use the original design, but was a new chip to the same specifications, which is a much better idea and a lot cheaper than trying to rework old chip designs.


Ok then, there is nothing to be gained from the boXer for this idea. "Cheaper" is not spending $4 million + trying to emulate the original chipset (boxer history) and build a new PC out of it. Cheaper is using the exact old chipset design and miniaturizing it into a single chip for a game device.

Quote
Also, I think no one would buy it or a C64 "game unit". but if you used an XScale with software emulation, that could emulate an Amiga, an Atari, a C64 etc... in a single box... that would sell to the retro gamer. As mentioned, I have no idea how you would emulate the functionality of the floppy based games in a user friendly way.


I think you're totally wrong.

I couldn't care less about making a new Amiga computer that 10,000-15,000 people want. That's bad business sense. I am interested in a retro gamer device that retails for around $50 and would be scooped up by millions of consumers for what it is -- a game device that plugs into their TV or VCR and lets them play 10 games. Easy, cheap, 100% accessible to everyone. It would be a pure winner.

The magic line is $49.95 - the "impulse shopper" price is $19.95 with some success at $24.95. But, twenty bucks or less = hundreds of thousands of extra units sold to people who couldn't care less what the tech was behind it -- they just see a $20 game unit they can shove in the Christmas stocking or in a birthday wrapper for little Johnny or Suzie.

If there was an advanced version that had cartridges it would be more in demand for people who were moderately aware of the history or technology (10 Amiga games per cartridge - the cartridge slot would add to the expense of production, but it would also allow for various other neat little expansions). But, it all comes down to what your cost-of-production would be. If you can bang out the self-contained versions for $10 or less a pop, and retail them at $24.95 it would be a roaring success. The cartridge version would be acceptible if the cartridges cost $9.95 and the game unit itself was around $49.95 -- cheap is the key - nobody cares about the Amiga technology outside the diehard community. People just want something fun, for a low price.

An Amiga RetroGamer would be precicely that. It has everything the Atari and Intellivision GamerTV's have but the games are better, the graphics are better, and the sound is better.

I am not interested in the Amiga community that currently trades ADFs of all the software, or the community that wants a PowerPC version of an Amiga so they can put new video cards and whatnots - there is no money in either of those. I want Joe Public to buy a game device! A "toy"! :-)

If it can be done - then there will be a new Amiga RetroGamer company that has a lot of cash... that company could then perhaps start building new Amiga computers. But, I highly doubt I could convince anyone that there is a business model that is profitable doing such a thing. (Sad but true.)
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Offline CatHerderTopic starter

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Re: Who currently owns the rights
« Reply #34 on: November 16, 2004, 02:13:58 AM »
Well here we go. And I am not suprised.

Tulip Computers launches COMMODORE 64 MINI GAME CONSOLE

Supercycle, Impossible Mission, Kickoff, California Games, Cyberdine Warrior, Summer Games, Cybernoid, Winter Games, Pitstop II, Exolon, Paradroid, Netherworld, Uridium, Chips Challenge, Speedball 2, Zynaps, etc etc are the games currently available.

I bet they sell millions.

Here's the game device
This is a better link to the C64 Retro Game Device


Now... who has the Amiga technology?! :-)
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Offline dbalaski

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Re: Who currently owns the rights
« Reply #35 on: November 16, 2004, 02:28:36 AM »
That has been out for a while --

Interesting that is is a 64, just minaturized:
http://www.jammingsignal.com/c64/aic/64dtv/page1.htm

http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=nl&lr=&c2coff=1&frame=right&th=dfdb71878523cff8&seekm=10o4tlhnr4dqq57%40corp.supernews.com#link1

In the US -- it is sold by Mamoth Toys in NY --
Seems it was launched on QVC for about $25

Interesting point for both sides of the arguement.

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Offline CatHerderTopic starter

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Re: Who currently owns the rights
« Reply #36 on: November 16, 2004, 02:34:23 AM »
Quote

dbalaski wrote:
That has been out for a while --

Interesting that is is a 64, just miniturised:
http://www.jammingsignal.com/c64/aic/64dtv/page1.htm


That's the whole point. :-)

Minaturize - package - sell. Anyone that says it won't be prifitable is not in tune with reality. Same goes with the Amiga - I'm sure it will cost more to minaturize it, but think of the spin-off products that could result.

There could be "Embedded Amiga on a PCI card" for the emulator people. There could be "The Amiga 6000 including 100% compatible A1200 on chip for backwards compatibility with older software" or there could be the option of having a motherboard wtih both the A1200 on-chip and the A500 on-chip... The possibilites are endless.

But the money to do this isn't in making a new Amiga computer, it's in making an Amiga retro-gamer and using the technology (and profits) from that to make other products (including a possible new Amiga with backwards compatability).
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Offline tinUK

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Re: Who currently owns the rights
« Reply #37 on: November 16, 2004, 08:25:54 AM »
megadrive mentioned is probably this http://www.firebox.com/index.html?dir=firebox&action=product&pid=864

and the boxer might have worked if mick tinker actually decided on a design and built it instead of endlessly redesigning it and announcing the great new features until 8 years had passed without actually releasing a thing then whinging that the amiga market hadn't paid him a wage for years....  :pissed:
 

Offline bloodline

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Re: Who currently owns the rights
« Reply #38 on: November 16, 2004, 10:42:19 AM »
@CatHerder
Quote

Minaturize - package - sell. Anyone that says it won't be prifitable is not in tune with reality. Same goes with the Amiga - I'm sure it will cost more to minaturize it, but think of the spin-off products that could result.


I think you should actually find out how the amiga works (and no, it's nothing like a C64). Then find out about the technology involved, Minaturising the Amiga Chipset would cost millions! It would be far cheaper to build an emulation on an existing platform. And without any decent market research I can't see where you draw your "profitable" line from.

P.S. you have contradictred yourself ina few comments.

Offline m_soeter

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Re: Who currently owns the rights
« Reply #39 on: November 16, 2004, 11:22:28 AM »
Amiga handhelds, nice :)

One thing though, the control(lers) for the device... are you thinking about Gameboy-style D-Pads and buttons? Problem arises with games that use the keyboard (Function keys for instance), how would you embed that in such a device?
 

Offline Samuar

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Re: Who currently owns the rights
« Reply #40 on: November 16, 2004, 11:30:25 AM »
Miniturization sounds like a great idea - i'm all for it.
But do we have a problem related to the custom amiga chips (for graphics and sound etc) - i.e. the very thing that made Amigas much better than any other 68K based machines. If we dont have the schematics, or if we do and we dont have the rights to use them, then surely we are stuck.

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Offline bloodline

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Re: Who currently owns the rights
« Reply #41 on: November 16, 2004, 12:30:36 PM »
Quote

Samuar wrote:
Miniturization sounds like a great idea - i'm all for it.
But do we have a problem related to the custom amiga chips (for graphics and sound etc) - i.e. the very thing that made Amigas much better than any other 68K based machines.


Remember that these chips, which were revolutionary in 1986... are now far outperformed by a chip that costs $5.

Quote

If we dont have the schematics, or if we do and we dont have the rights to use them, then surely we are stuck.


But even if we did have the schematics the cost to rework them for modern silicon and then miniturise them (which is a massive task in itself), would make the whole project prohibitivly expensive, and all you would end up with is a chip that is out performed by any gfx/sound chip you could buy off the shelf.

BTW I do have an Amiga Handheld... my iPaq 4150 running UAE :-)

-Edit-


Offline CatHerderTopic starter

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Re: Who currently owns the rights
« Reply #42 on: November 16, 2004, 12:49:07 PM »
Quote

bloodline wrote:
I think you should actually find out how the amiga works (and no, it's nothing like a C64). Then find out about the technology involved, Minaturising the Amiga Chipset would cost millions! It would be far cheaper to build an emulation on an existing platform. And without any decent market research I can't see where you draw your "profitable" line from.

P.S. you have contradictred yourself ina few comments.


Which comments, feel free to list them - I've been thinking out loud in this thread...

I think you should find out how this antiquated technology works instead of living in a fantasy world. There's nothing earth shattering in an Amiga (not today, sorry). It was "wow amazing" in 1985-1990 but soon as 91 hit, the Amiga was no longer "wow amazing".

All I've seen since 1995 is a bunch of attempts at building PC's and Mac clones that run Amiga emulators. A few faster accelerators here, a few cards allowing you to use PC parts there, etc... No new technology, just a bunch of altering existing PC tech to work with 12 year old Amiga hardware.

You can bash on people all you want Bloodline, including me - fact remains you're wrong about this idea. People are making millions off of realistic products (retro game units), nobody in their right mind is going to invest millions on a computer that is targeted at 10,000 users (that's being generous) world-wide. But smart people will certainly invest a couple million to get a retro gamer out the door that millions of consumers (who couldn't care less what an Amiga is) will scoop up like hotcakes -- all for the games.

But keep up the good trolling.
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Offline CatHerderTopic starter

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Re: Who currently owns the rights
« Reply #43 on: November 16, 2004, 01:00:20 PM »
Quote

Samuar wrote:
Miniturization sounds like a great idea - i'm all for it.
But do we have a problem related to the custom amiga chips (for graphics and sound etc) - i.e. the very thing that made Amigas much better than any other 68K based machines.


I seriously doubt it. If a couple garage coders can write software that runs on an x86 windows box, and that software can emulate all the custom chips, timings, etc., how hard could it be - seriously - for a multimillion dollar firm to create a chip that does the same?

Quote

If we dont have the schematics, or if we do and we dont have the rights to use them, then surely we are stuck.

samuar


Yes, but if they exist, whomever owns them will be more than interested in making money lisencing them. As it stands, no Amiga company thats owned the technology since 1991 has turned a profit. I'm sure Gateway or whomever would love to recoup their lost money.

Even if it turns out that the Amiga RetroGamer has to use an Intel/AMD/etc processor and run an emulated Amiga it would still sell just as well. It would be a lot more enticing technology-wise if it could be a miniaturized Amiga though, the expansion capabilities once it was turning a heavy profit from the game consumer would eventually lead to some cool new swag.

It would also be cheaper to miniaturize the chipset than to try and use a more current processor (lets say P400) which would entail shriking more current tech, and lisencing that tech from a monied up company (AMD or intel) would make it all cost even more. To emulate the Amiga and it's OS requires a decent CPU. That's too costly for manufacturing a game device.
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Offline bloodline

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Re: Who currently owns the rights
« Reply #44 from previous page: November 16, 2004, 01:08:44 PM »
Quote

CatHerder wrote:
Quote

bloodline wrote:
I think you should actually find out how the amiga works (and no, it's nothing like a C64). Then find out about the technology involved, Minaturising the Amiga Chipset would cost millions! It would be far cheaper to build an emulation on an existing platform. And without any decent market research I can't see where you draw your "profitable" line from.

P.S. you have contradictred yourself ina few comments.


Which comments, feel free to list them - I've been thinking out loud in this thread...

I think you should find out how this antiquated technology works instead of living in a fantasy world. There's nothing earth shattering in an Amiga (not today, sorry). It was "wow amazing" in 1985-1990 but soon as 91 hit, the Amiga was no longer "wow amazing".

All I've seen since 1995 is a bunch of attempts at building PC's and Mac clones that run Amiga emulators. A few faster accelerators here, a few cards allowing you to use PC parts there, etc... No new technology, just a bunch of altering existing PC tech to work with 12 year old Amiga hardware.

You can bash on people all you want Bloodline, including me - fact remains you're wrong about this idea. People are making millions off of realistic products (retro game units), nobody in their right mind is going to invest millions on a computer that is targeted at 10,000 users (that's being generous) world-wide. But smart people will certainly invest a couple million to get a retro gamer out the door that millions of consumers (who couldn't care less what an Amiga is) will scoop up like hotcakes -- all for the games.

But keep up the good trolling.


Since I know what I'm talking about, and I have researched the subject of the custom chip technology myself many years ago (1999), I feel I am well placed to point out the flaws in your idea. BEAUSE the technology is old it means there are very few FABs that can build the chips. Modern chips use a very technology to old one, you can't even use the same gate layouts anymore due to different capacitances! If you read what I'm trying to say, you will realise I have nothing against the idea, but your flaw is in the implementation.

If you see my £250 iPaq running a Beta version of UAE you will see where I'm coming from.

Another problem that crops up is the legal rights to the games... Atari, Nintendo etc, not only made the hardware... they also published the games... this means they can resell them without any legal issues... Commodore published very few Amiga/C64 games, which makes these things much more messy.

I'm not trolling.