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Offline huronking

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Re: Amiga Basic
« Reply #74 from previous page: January 27, 2010, 01:40:36 AM »
Quote from: persia;436969
just program in malbolge or lolcode...

Hello world

malbolge


lolcode


++++++++++[>++++++++>++++++++++>+++>+<<<<-]>.>+++++.++++++++++..>++.<<-.>-------------..>+.>.

:) :) :)
 

Offline LoadWB

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Re: Amiga Basic
« Reply #75 on: January 27, 2010, 02:26:32 AM »
You all have your heads in the sand.

COBOL or DIE!

GFA Basic was a pleasure to program in.  My grandfather had a copy of it for his Atari 520ST, and I recently picked up one for the Amiga.  Very nice.  Although, I admittedly haven't come close to using its full ability.  Just for a little fun.

Oh, and RPG-II.  Yeah, you should definitely mess with that.
 

Offline CSixx

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Re: Amiga Basic
« Reply #76 on: January 27, 2010, 03:14:20 AM »
I'll pipe in a bit here with some support for c#

C# via mono or .net is a great way to learn C syntax and OOP in general.
It's the greatness of C++ minus all the irritants, no pointers (usually), garbage collection, and some great objects built into the framework for you to use.

With the added benefit that you can move to java with ease if you want to...
(However starting with java directly is annoying due to the bad GUI support)

Simply put, Anyone starting out with c/c++ as a beginner has a long road to productivity, C# makes the road MUCH shorter.

GL in whatever you pick up.
(LOLCODE looks superior to all tho haha, thats a good one)
 

Offline jj

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Re: Amiga Basic
« Reply #77 on: January 27, 2010, 12:17:30 PM »
Anyone know if any good free modula 2 stuff around.  learnt it a bit in uniy , thinks its based on pascal from memory
“We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” - George Bernard Shaw

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Offline Louis Dias

Re: Amiga Basic
« Reply #78 on: January 27, 2010, 05:36:11 PM »
Quote from: bloodline;436952
Is C really so hard, that you want to stick with BASIC?


The ugliness and side-effects is the exact opposite of what BASIC is for.

BASIC is straight-forward and the logic is obvious.  If you would like, I can end every line with a : in basic but what would be the point?  Those semi-colons just add ugliness.

C is a relic created in a time where every byte counted because memory was limited.  It needs to die.

Just look at VB.net code compared to the equivalent C# code.
Just look here as an example: http://forums.asp.net/t/971802.aspx

C/C++/C# = fugly
 

Offline beller

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Re: Amiga Basic
« Reply #79 on: January 27, 2010, 06:15:52 PM »
Wow, this is a year old thread!  I was thinking Jens was back...

Nobody mentioned TrueBasic which, I think, was largely sold in North America.  It's claim was portability between systems.

Perhaps it's in the water, but I've just recently started relearning to program basic on the C64.  I was getting into it when the Amiga was released and never went back.   Who knew poke 53280,0 could be so much fun!

Bob
 

Offline Karlos

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Re: Amiga Basic
« Reply #80 on: January 27, 2010, 06:27:56 PM »
@lou_dias

A language is not ugly simply because you don't like the syntax. I can make exactly the same claim that basic is obscenely, putrescently ugly. It's haplessly verbose, wordy and coding in it feels like trying to write English with boxing gloves on. That would be my opinion only, however, not some established argument against it.

There's a damn good reason why so many languages have syntax derived from C. It's well-defined, concise and expressive. It's probably the single most successful programming level language of all time and if you think it's on it's way out any time soon, well, don't hold your breath. C syntax based languages exist that cover every major programming paradigm and plenty of more obscure ones.

Quote
C is a relic created in a time where every byte counted because memory was limited. It needs to die.

Not liking the syntax is your prerogative but this is just untrue.

Your argument that the syntax is a product of memory constraint is incorrect since it is the size of the resulting object code that matters, not the source. Even a machine with a limited amount of memory can compile large source from disk. The data structures that any compiler builds (C, Fortran, BASIC or whatever other language you fancy) during compilation are far more significant than the actual size of the textual source.

Even if you were to make the claim that it was to reduce the size of source that was being edited, if memory constraints were a prime motivator, there'd be no reason for it to allow long function, variable and structure names, the only practical limits for which are set by the linker.

C syntax is compact simply because it doens't need to be any more verbose.

By all means, prefer using a different syntax, but don't embarass yourself by trying to present your personal dislike of the syntax as some sort of established argument against it.
« Last Edit: January 27, 2010, 06:36:54 PM by Karlos »
int p; // A
 

Offline Louis Dias

Re: Amiga Basic
« Reply #81 on: January 27, 2010, 06:46:18 PM »
Quote from: Karlos;540309
@lou_dias

A language is not ugly simply because you don't like the syntax. I can make exactly the same claim that basic is obscenely, putrescently ugly. It's haplessly verbose, wordy and coding in it feels like trying to write English with boxing gloves on. That would be my opinion only, however, not some established argument against it.

There's a damn good reason why so many languages have syntax derived from C. It's well-defined, concise and expressive. It's probably the single most successful programming level language of all time and if you think it's on it's way out any time soon, well, don't hold your breath. C syntax based languages exist that cover every major programming paradigm and plenty of more obscure ones.



Not liking the syntax is your prerogative but this is just untrue.

Your argument that the syntax is a product of memory constraint is incorrect since it is the size of the resulting object code that matters, not the source. Even a machine with a limited amount of memory can compile large source from disk. The data structures that any compiler builds (C, Fortran, BASIC or whatever other language you fancy) during compilation are far more significant than the actual size of the textual source.

Even if you were to make the claim that it was to reduce the size of source that was being edited, if memory constraints were a prime motivator, there'd be no reason for it to allow long function, variable and structure names, the only practical limits for which are set by the linker.

C syntax is compact simply because it doens't need to be any more verbose.

By all means, prefer using a different syntax, but don't embarass yourself by trying to present your personal dislike of the syntax as some sort of established argument against it.


I was correct about memory constraints as I was referring to the source code files not the executable.  Alot of text editors had contraints back in the day.

Here's a big obscure problem with C:  if X=1 {
Side-effects are what makes C crap.
You can defend it just like people defended albums over CD's...feel free.

C has undefined bahavior and lacks alot of features.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C_(programming_language)
C is the original Dodge Viper of programming languages (recall that the original did not even have outer door handles)...
 

Offline Karlos

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Re: Amiga Basic
« Reply #82 on: January 27, 2010, 07:01:02 PM »
Quote from: lou_dias;540312
I was correct about memory constraints as I was referring to the source code files not the executable.  Alot of text editors had contraints back in the day.

They did, but that is not the reason why C is terse. As pointed out, you can have function names, structure names, variable names as long as you like. The C specification only defines the minimum required supported length.

struct MyVeryLongStructureName {

};

is hardly something you'd expect from a language that was designed for "small memory" editors, is it?

Quote
Here's a big obscure problem with C:  if X=1 {

I assume you meant:

if (X=1) {

}

That's completely well defined. Pointless, yes, but well-defined. That will always execute the code in the block, where as this will always skip it:

if (X=0) {

}

There's no ambiguity here, just programmer error. It isn't as if '=' in C _ever_ means "equal to", it _always_ means "assign to lvalue".

Quote
Side-effects are what makes C crap.
You can defend it just like people defended albums over CD's...feel free.

C has undefined bahavior and lacks alot of features.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C_(programming_language)
C is the original Dodge Viper of programming languages (recall that the original did not even have outer door handles)...

I was talking about the C syntax, since this is what you complained about, now you are complaining about the limitations of the C language implementation in isolation. Make up your mind which it is you have a problem with. Is it C's syntax or is it C as a programming language?

As pointed out, the C syntax covers many, many languages. I challenge you to find any important programming paradigm for which there is no C syntax derived language that incorporates it.
« Last Edit: January 27, 2010, 07:06:20 PM by Karlos »
int p; // A
 

Offline SamuraiCrow

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Re: Amiga Basic
« Reply #83 on: January 27, 2010, 07:42:21 PM »
Re:C vs. Basic

IMHO, C syntax exists because of a deficiency in old parsers and parser generators.   They process tokenization and syntactic analysis in two separate stages.  This was made obsolete with modern PEG parser generators which process multi-character tokens effortlessly using lookahead and backtracking instead of tokenization.

For a nice example of a PEG parser generator written in C who generates code in C, look at http://piumarta.com/software/peg/.  My partner is programming a version of it which generates LLVM Assembly instead of C at http://sourceforge.net/projects/llvmpeg/.
 

Offline Karlos

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Re: Amiga Basic
« Reply #84 on: January 27, 2010, 08:02:54 PM »
Buh... buh... I'm a mod so you have to agree with what I say or I'll ban your ass... :lol:

Just kidding, seriously....
int p; // A
 

Offline LoadWB

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Re: Amiga Basic
« Reply #85 on: January 27, 2010, 09:25:42 PM »
Quote from: Karlos;540340
Buh... buh... I'm a mod so you have to agree with what I say or I'll ban your ass... :lol:

Just kidding, seriously....


Egregious abuse of power.  Rise up against the tyranny!

::ducks the ban-hammer:: :-p
 

Offline Karlos

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Re: Amiga Basic
« Reply #86 on: January 27, 2010, 09:27:10 PM »
Quote
::ducks the ban-hammer:: :-p


/me deploys the MIRV Carpet Layer edition of ban hammer....
int p; // A