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Offline koaftder

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Re: Free Money
« Reply #29 from previous page: September 10, 2007, 12:20:40 PM »
If I stuck a gun in somebody's face, I bet I could get all their money and I wouldn't even need the codes!
 

Offline skurk

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Re: Free Money
« Reply #30 on: September 10, 2007, 12:31:14 PM »
No bank (where I'm from) will do such a thing by the phone.

Piru's bank sounds similar to mine.  When I log in to my bank, I have to state my birthdate+social security number (DDMMYYYYxxxxx), my personal password and the current validation code from the bank (four digits, changes for every login).  These codes are either snailmailed to you, or generated using your credit card and a hardware dongle.

Then, when you're about to commit a transaction, you have to punch in another validation code from the bank.

I think your odds are better looking for an exploit of some sort.
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Offline nBit7

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Re: Free Money
« Reply #31 on: September 10, 2007, 12:48:09 PM »
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If I stuck a gun in somebody's face, I bet I could get all their money and I wouldn't even need the codes!


And people carry so much cash on themselves these days!
 

Offline nBit7

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Re: Free Money
« Reply #32 on: September 10, 2007, 12:53:34 PM »
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Piru's bank sounds similar to mine. When I log in to my bank, I have to state my birthdate+social security number (DDMMYYYYxxxxx), my personal password and the current validation code from the bank (four digits, changes for every login).


Changes every log in?  Holy crap that sounds a bit over the top.  There does become a point were more security is not a good thing.

Assuming you know a 'current' address.  It is easy to also state on the phone that you have changed address.
 

Offline jj

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Re: Free Money
« Reply #33 on: September 10, 2007, 01:40:18 PM »
Not with any of my banks in the uk.

You need to know your Intenet Banking ID.  Plus a six digit security code, DOB .

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Offline nBit7

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Re: Free Money
« Reply #34 on: September 10, 2007, 02:04:51 PM »
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You need to know your Intenet Banking ID. Plus a six digit security code, DOB .


It is not uncommon for people to lose/forget there ID/sec codes.  How sure are you that someone knowing enough basic details about you; couldn't get on the phone and convince the person on the other end that they are 'you'.  Change your mailing address and get a new codes.

I was surprised with the ease I was able to get a new internet password all just over the phone.
 

Offline Piru

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Re: Free Money
« Reply #35 on: September 10, 2007, 02:07:57 PM »
@nBit7
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Changes every log in? Holy crap that sounds a bit over the top.

That's the whole point of the challenge-response system. Even if your login and password leaks, that final lock is still at place preventing abuse.

It'll take that any day compared to losing money.
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There does become a point were more security is not a good thing.

Sure. This isn't one of those cases however.
 

Offline Piru

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Re: Free Money
« Reply #36 on: September 10, 2007, 02:15:07 PM »
@nBit7
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How sure are you that someone knowing enough basic details about you; couldn't get on the phone and convince the person on the other end that they are 'you'. Change your mailing address and get a new codes.

Resetting the password requires physical visit to the bank (at least here). Also, they'll never send the login/pass over mail (except the initial login/pass when you create the account).

Only thing you get via email are the challenge/response lists (which are useless without the login/pass).

Believe me, they have thought these things over.
 

Offline Jupp3

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Re: Free Money
« Reply #37 on: September 10, 2007, 02:32:54 PM »
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Once you've logged in, in order to do any transaction you'd need to know challenge-response number from a key list (say, "enter security ID #75"). Needless to say, the lists are totally random and I have the only copy.

Of course that doesn't stop people from creating scam sites, where front page looks exactly like the banks official site (with a slightly different address)

Then it asks you to "confirm" all your personal information, including "10 next keycodes" (which should be more than enough to empty your account)

And yes, too many people still fall for that. Luckily some people created software, that will fill those scam sites with random information, thus making it harder to locate the details of real people.

Personally I don't consider this a security problem, rather some users being way too stupid. But I guess it was becouse of that, that my bank started asking the codes in random order.
 

Offline Floid

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Re: Free Money
« Reply #38 on: September 12, 2007, 11:23:50 PM »
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Belial6 wrote:
The US banks are definitely making money of of fraud somewhere.  All you have to do to know that is look at how heavily they push the "Check Cards".  Check cards are basically credit cards that automatically withdraw the money every charge immediately after use.

Here in the US, they even run ads that show how difficult it is to use a check when you don't have any ID, and that with a Check Card, you can just swipe the card and and go.  They are even advertising how you don't even need to sign a receipt now.

It amazes me how many people that I would have thought were mentally capable, happily accept these cards from their banks.


The banks don't make money off fraud, but Visa and MasterCard make money off merchant fees (or at least flat merchant terminal fees) for accepting debit and credit transactions.  Shifting more transactions to plastic from cash makes the service more valuable -- imagine running a cash-only restaurant these days -- and encourages more merchants to sign on.

As to the (in)security of direct transfers, my understanding of the problem is that the system which has become commonplace originated as a 'hack' to get around exorbitant wire fees by using the ACH (automated clearinghouse) network built for clearing checks between banks bidirectionally.  

The security is via "limited" access to the ACH network, meaning PayPal and its predecessor services (payroll direct-deposit providers, etc) had to somehow get authorized to participate.  Presumably you have to be 'sort of a bank.'  But when any 'sort of a bank' lets anyone plug in any account details and start making transfers...

The safeguards on the new RFID credit and debit cards (PayPass, etc) are apparently the same: "limited" access to the merchant network, meaning a fair chunk of the safety is in authentication of the merchant terminal and crypto between the merchant terminal and the bank.  As far as I can tell, they are trying to confuse matters by talking about the TLS-type crypto between the terminal and the bank as if it applies to the terminal<->tag communication; apparently some of the cards are just using a dumb transponder with the equivalent of magstripe information.

Of course, now you don't need to sign a slip for credit-network purchases under $25, either.


Further, in the US we apparently have a new federal statute that might as well be called the Phishing Enablement Act -- one of my banks now requires me to enter my full card and PIN number (along with username and password) to obtain a cookie 'authenticating' the machine I'm connecting from; another opts for a slightly more sane challenge/response "Security Questions" scheme, but with fixed questions that entail static personal information: "What is your grandfather's name?" "Where were you born?" "What was your first car?"

The problems here are so awful that I don't even know where to begin.  I need to find the actual law and see what it actually requires, but these systems seem to benefit:
 - Advertisers, who benefit when more users are forced to accept cookies; and
 - Banks, who don't benefit from phishing, but do benefit in fees every time an inconvenienced user doesn't check his balance because of the new hoops and overdraws his account.

Apparently overdraft fees compensate the risk of fraud, especially since they *are* lucrative for the banks and the banks' insurers probably cover the costs of fraud (or the banks' own profits do, giving them the complacency to whine about the problem without doing anything concrete about it).
 

Offline stopthegopTopic starter

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Re: Free Money
« Reply #39 on: September 13, 2007, 01:40:39 AM »
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Apparently overdraft fees compensate the risk of fraud, especially since they *are* lucrative for the banks and the banks' insurers probably cover the costs of fraud (or the banks' own profits do, giving them the complacency to whine about the problem without doing anything concrete about it).


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