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Offline Tahoe

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Re: Scandoubler recommendations
« Reply #59 from previous page: November 15, 2004, 02:08:05 PM »
Excellent thread guys!

All posts here refer to the the DCE Internal Flicker Fixer. I am considering buying the Eyetech one. Is this identical to the DCE? Not according to some old reviews I dug up.
Would this also suffer from the 16bit limitation?
Greetings from Wilnis, The Netherlands
Now owning ALL Amiga models and most; if not all; flavours of them...My Amiga Museum
 

Offline keropi

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Re: Scandoubler recommendations
« Reply #60 on: November 15, 2004, 02:25:33 PM »
I never saw this 16bit dce thread... I got a DCE flickermagic about a week ago, and it looks fine... very clear, haven't noticed the colors though... but it still beats the native flicker screenmodes
 

Offline Hyperspeed

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Re: Scandoubler recommendations
« Reply #61 on: November 18, 2004, 11:33:31 PM »
The scandoubler I refer to is an Eyetech EZ-VGA Plus
scandoubler/flicker-fixer.

It's a metal case that's about 4 inches long and half inch thick with
a bit of paper on top for the logo.

This one has a red and green light to signify pass-thru of 31Khz modes
and a green to show it's scandoubling/flicker-fixing 15Khz modes.

The Eyetech one has a potentiometer screw on the back to tune exactly
to your Amigas clock signal. This may have deferred from motherboard
revisions.

I think it would appear that the internal scandoubler would offer the
best quality, but still inferior in colour rendering to the
Picasso-IV's which I assume to be full 24-Bit.

I must say again though, if you use your external one in NTSC or PAL
60Hz you won't notice it from 24-Bit RGB. Just give it a minute to
warm up on a cold day.

:-D
 

Offline Karlos

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Re: Scandoubler recommendations
« Reply #62 on: November 18, 2004, 11:59:25 PM »
Quote

keropi wrote:
I never saw this 16bit dce thread... I got a DCE flickermagic about a week ago, and it looks fine... very clear, haven't noticed the colors though... but it still beats the native flicker screenmodes


To see the effect, create 3 256 colour images in deluxe paint AGA, one showing a gradient from black to maximum red (ie a full palette spread), one showing the gradient from black to maximum green and one showing the gradient from black to maximum blue. What you should observe is that the green and blue suffer quantization gradients where the 8-bit resolution is axed down to 4 bits. Only the red will show a smooth, unbroken gradient.
int p; // A
 

Offline Hyperspeed

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Re: Scandoubler recommendations
« Reply #63 on: November 19, 2004, 01:00:16 AM »
Wow, I tried that just now...

I use an Eyetech EZ-VGA Plus (3" long metal box on A1200 video port)

I created a 256-colour range from left to right in Deluxe Paint 5 and
it appears that my Scandoubler/Flicker-Fixer displays twice as many
tones in green as it does in red/blue. You have to turn off dithering
(Right-click the paint can/fill-tool in Deluxe Paint) so that
individual colours are seen as bars and not blended into each other.

Would this be RGB=4/8/4?

If this is correct then each increment should be just 3x pixels
across whereas my colour increments are closer to 33x pixels across in
red/blue!

What I mean is:
724(horizontal res) รท 22(colour increments) = 33(pixels per increment)

No wonder my HAM8 looks grittier than it should be! HAM8 theoretically
should be 4x smoother than 16-bit graphics since it's 256,000 colours
and 16-bit is 65,536.

If 4-bit is 16 colours then 16x256x16 (RGB 4-bit/8-bit/4-bit) =
65,536. This means that the power of AGA HAM8 is being degraded to
16-Bit PC quality as opposed to 19-Bit Amiga quality. We're
effectively getting only twice the Super-NES colour palette...

Grrrrr!

I would say that this is a serious breach of Amiga users trust that
years after purchase we are finding out we were sold scandoublers with
inferior hardware (so the manufacturers could save a few bucks).

Interesting to know what other people see in this experiment, be it on
DCE/Eyetech or Cybervision/Picasso!

:-(
 

Offline Karlos

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Re: Scandoubler recommendations
« Reply #64 on: November 19, 2004, 01:16:50 AM »
Well 8/4/4 would imply red has 16x the resolution of either of the other two. Each bit per gun doubles the range of values it has.

I suggest you try the trick using a vertical gradient on a 256 pixel tall screen if possible -  a horizontal gradient will always have some bleed in it. Turn off dithering also. If you have a genuine 8-bit gun colour, a 256 tall gradient will have a unique colour every line giving a smooth gradient. If you have 4-bit, it will be approximately 16 bands you will see.

If you see that green has 64 bands and that red and blue each have 32 it suggest an RGB 565 arrangement which is far more sensible (its your basic 16-bit RGB format).

This gives you 32x64z32 = 65536 colours and is not too bad.  A well dithered RGB 565 display is almost as good as your HAM8 (since green is the brightest colour, it makes sense to give it the greater resolution so that the steps are smaller).

If you see red as completely smooth, green and blue as 16 bands, it implies the rather insane RGB 844 format. This format could only have been chosen by some tired HW designer who had no knowledge of colour theory at all. First of all, the green channel should have the greater bit depth (where the total resolution is not divisible by three) and no single R/G/B channel really needs more than 2x the resolution of the others. This is why RGB 565 works so well, but RGB 844 is just bobbins ;-)
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Offline Karlos

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Re: Scandoubler recommendations
« Reply #65 on: November 19, 2004, 02:12:39 AM »
Hmm, this got me thinking

Perhaps we could get a colour calibration testcard. A basic 320x256 HAM8 one consisting of your three basic (undithered) gradients (arranged side by side as 100x256, 100x256, 100x256) a test image for scandoublers as there would be no fringing for vertical gradients.

For perfect HAM8 reproduction, there should be 64 bands to each gradient (each one has a 6-bit basic resolution). Perhaps some calibration points down the edge of the image to help counting :-)
int p; // A
 

Offline Hyperspeed

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Re: Scandoubler recommendations
« Reply #66 on: November 19, 2004, 02:48:30 AM »
Hold it...

If the Amiga brochures say AGA can handle 262,144 colours then HAM8
must be 18-bit.

I agree that HAM8 would be 6-bit on each of the RGB guns for a 64
colour gradient, however my eyes can't count that without getting
lost.

Since PAL is a little gritty on my EZ-VGA Plus I decided the only way
to be able to see the difference between gradients was to use NTSC.

I managed to count RGB colours as 22/44/22... which makes 4.5/5.5/4.5
as opposed to 4/8/4 or 5/6/5.

Since my eyes had trouble making this out accurately, this rough
calculation surely means I have a superior 5/6/5 16-Bit configuration
and not the crazy 4/8/4 scenario (or worse - 8/4/4 you mention).

However, if it left my HAM8 alone I would have 6/6/6 (the sign of the
devil!)

Oh well, if you love your colours I suppose the only option is to put
up with flicker on a 15Khz monitor or get a Picasso-IV.

Any PIV users here able to do this test on an AGA screenmode for us to
see?

:-D
 

Offline Karlos

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Re: Scandoubler recommendations
« Reply #67 on: November 19, 2004, 02:35:14 PM »
@Hyperspeed

Actually, believe it or not, there are tricks that can be achieved with the copper that allow static images to be shown in near 24-bit on AGA/HAM8 ;-) It centres around using a different set of base colours per scanline. It's good for image viewers but not suited for realtime displays.

If you have RGB565 that is not too bad. Any 844 variant would just look awful.

Let's see how they compare ;-)
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Offline Martyn

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Re: Scandoubler recommendations
« Reply #68 on: November 19, 2004, 03:56:35 PM »
Very informative thread guys.

As I was reading it, I was thinking that the bits-per-gun issue would probably be different for differetn makes of FF.  Maybe people could post there experiments here so we could create a list of how the different FFs are configured.

Seems the EZ-VGA-plus is winning at the moment!

I've got an old AGA-2000 in my A2000 that I'd love to put in my 4000D.  I know it doesn't support AGA colour depths but that doesn't and I heard it would still actually work.

I managed to fit it in the video slot ok - except because it's designed for the 2000's huge backplane, the video out socket is obscured by the case!

Any bright ideas?

Martyn.
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Offline Hyperspeed

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Re: Scandoubler recommendations
« Reply #69 on: November 20, 2004, 12:48:22 AM »
What about finding (or making) a female->male extension lead. It could
fit in the obstructed port and trail out, then screw into a spare gap
in the other slot areas.

On another note, since the EZ-VGA Plus disables itself when it detects
Multiscan Productivity then on this particular screenmode I must be
getting a full 18-bit HAM8 palette!

Multiscan appears a little lighter than PAL/NTSC and is very crisp. It
doesn't appear to lose the quality of a 15Khz signal being converted
to composite and back (during the flicker fixing stage I think).

Multiscan Productivity is pretty slow as it eats up the ChipRAM
bandwidth but you get a perfect RGB 640x480 (4:3) resolution along
with a true 1:1 ratio mouse pointer which looks the business!

Maybe I'll set up a mode for every occasion!

:-D :-D :-D
 

Offline Karlos

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Re: Scandoubler recommendations
« Reply #70 on: November 20, 2004, 01:20:38 AM »
@Hyperspeed

You could look into getting a graphics card. Your eyes will love you for it. My BVision is faster in 1600 x 1200 x 65536 colours than AGA is in 640 x 256 x 4 colours.
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Offline Hyperspeed

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Re: Scandoubler recommendations
« Reply #71 on: November 20, 2004, 01:34:17 AM »
Yes, I'd love a GFX card but I want a Picasso-IV and whilst it's
possible it doesn't look straightforward to add one to an A1200.
Particularly a desktop A1200!

:-D :-D

I think this thread is useful to A500, A500+, A600, CDTV and CD32
owners since the external EZ-VGA Plus can be just slotted onto their
standard video out ports. I've never heard of GFX cards for those
machines which is a shame really.

The biggest shame for A1200 owners was never getting a small GFX card
add-on but as has been explained to me in another thread - it was only
until the BlizzardVision that this was possible in an effective way.
 

Offline Karlos

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Re: Scandoubler recommendations
« Reply #72 on: November 20, 2004, 01:39:25 AM »
That's true. The P-IV is a very good card, once termed "the godfather of amiga graphics cards" :-)

You'd be very ill advised to use a BVision in a desktop 1200 though - the Permedia2 and SGRAM are clocked at least 83MHz and get hot. In my tower, the P2 has a 25mm tall power amplifier heatsink bonded to it and a 80mm case fan mounted over the whole card area to keep it cool.
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