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Offline Turambar

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Re: Human-powered helicopter
« Reply #14 from previous page: August 14, 2004, 06:03:58 PM »
Ahh but it does, and its good for so many other things too. More here.
 

Offline blobranaTopic starter

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Re: Human-powered helicopter
« Reply #15 on: August 14, 2004, 07:12:30 PM »
Hum,
most impressive bit of research (google?) i`ve seen...

i like the bit about `dung is also an organic recreational aerodynamic device...`

Offline X-ray

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Re: Human-powered helicopter
« Reply #16 on: August 14, 2004, 09:53:50 PM »
@ Blob

Don't go making your own frisbees now  :-o
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What I couldn't get my head around was the 'dung smoked cheese'
Can't smell too good, can it?
 

Offline JaXanim

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Re: Human-powered helicopter
« Reply #17 on: August 15, 2004, 12:20:41 AM »
@blobrana

I see your argument, but it's a fallacy.

When you propose GA flying in a circle, I guess you mean to simulate a 'copter. The ultimate analogy is GA rotating about its centre.

If GA's wings were given 'opposite' pitch akin to helicopter blades and it was made to rotate about the wings' centre point and with a relative wind speed of say 10mph, it wouldn't hover. Hovering requires downthrust, and there is none in the case of aeroplanes. The wings create lift. The equal and opposite force (as required by Newton's first law) is the mass of the craft.

You could think of the 'copter rotor as an air pump, sucking in air from above and compressing it by altering the pitch of the blades. It's not their aerofoil section which creates lift, it's the downward jetstream against which the rotors react and thereby lift the mass.

When planes turn in too tight a circle they become unstable because the relative airspeed across the wings goes down. The airspeed becomes a vector determined by the angle of turn. At a hypothetical 90 degree turn, airpseed is zero and the plane will fall out of the sky. You've probably seen videos of US and Russian fighters getting into such predicaments.

[EDIT: Flying a plane in circles requires more and more power as the radius decreases. In the GA case, I doubt if it could be made to turn in anything but very big circles, maybe a mile across. The peddling man wouldn't have enough extra energy to do otherwise and remain aloft.]

Now it just might be possible to power a helicopter on dung, but never by a man.

Cheers,

JaX




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Offline Vincent

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Re: Human-powered helicopter
« Reply #18 on: August 15, 2004, 12:49:14 AM »
Quote

KennyR wrote:
Vincent, your argument has one logical flaw: sh!te doesn't burn.

Now that's true, but we could harness the methane gasses and use that to power the chopper :-D
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I don\'t think I have the stomach for it." - Raziel
 

Offline JaXanim

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Re: Human-powered helicopter
« Reply #19 on: August 15, 2004, 12:56:43 AM »
@Vincent

Yep. Remember Mad Max's mate with the autogyro? That was powered by methane derived from fermented pigshit wasn't it? I'm sure it was something like that.

JaX
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Offline X-ray

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Re: Human-powered helicopter
« Reply #20 on: August 15, 2004, 03:38:20 PM »
JaXanim said:


"Now it just might be possible to power a helicopter on dung, but never by a man."

----------------------------------------------------------

Fine, then we'll ask Blobrana to do it  :-)
 

Offline blobranaTopic starter

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Re: Human-powered helicopter
« Reply #21 on: August 15, 2004, 11:17:45 PM »
Hehe,
according to the original link:
"A helicopter rotor is notoriously inefficient in producing lift compared to a fixed wing aircraft. Consider the large portion of the rotor (the inner portion) that sees a low free stream velocity. Lift depends on how fast a local wing section is moving. Airfoil sections on a fixed wing aircraft see a constant free stream velocity (the speed of the aircraft"

The rotors arn`t used for `thrust` but for lift...

The more i think about it, the more obvious it seems ( that it is possible)...




I hope your not an engineer JaXanim  :-)

Offline PMC

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Re: Human-powered helicopter
« Reply #22 on: August 16, 2004, 09:13:12 AM »
@Blob,

Yep, spot on with the observation comparing a helicopter rotor to a conventional aerofoil.  

One thing though re the Gossamer Condor human powered channel crossing:

Although the Gossamer was propelled by human effort, the aerofoil was partly supported by thermals from the body of seawater.  You only have to see how a sea bird skims the surface of the water for some distance without actually flapping to see that enough lift is being generated to keep the bird aloft without requiring the bird to flap constantly.

You might also notice that the wings of seabirds tend to be longer and narrower than their land bound cousins.

A human powered helicopter would be under constant power to remain airborne, the pilot couldn't stop pedalling and coast because the rotor would cease to generate sufficient lift (constant movement is required), plus the balancing fan (tail rotor) needs it's power modulated to compensate for torque.

I'd love to see the thing fly though...
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Offline whabang

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Re: Human-powered helicopter
« Reply #23 on: August 16, 2004, 09:36:55 AM »
Quote
Interesting thing is a bumble bee can do it with ease even though the principles of aerodynamics say it shouldn't.

New research has made clear that bumble bees can fly! (DUH! :-)).
Their wings are shaped in a way that gives much better dynamics compared to that of a ordinary bee, or a wasp.

Their wings are simply shaped in a way that creates tiny air whirls around them. Theese whirls... well... do stuff... (I'm no expert on aerodynamics).

Anyway, the old saying that "Bumble bees can't fly, they just aren't aware of it" isn't true.
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Offline whabang

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Re: Human-powered helicopter
« Reply #24 on: August 16, 2004, 09:40:18 AM »
As for the topic:

I'm sure, that with advances in rotor technology, and a very well trained pilot, like Lance Armstron, could get a human powered helicopter up in the air for short periods of time. However, I seriously doubt that it is possible to travel anywhere.

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Offline bloodline

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Re: Human-powered helicopter
« Reply #25 on: August 16, 2004, 02:45:29 PM »
I remember reading a book all about Lamina air flows and how insects can use Vorticies on the top surface of the wing increase the speed of the air, many years ago (probably about 15!).

when you think about it like that, it's hard to see why any one would think a Bumble Bee can't fly!

The real tricky one, is the butterfly, but that takes advantage of the large wing area and the distinctive flapping motion to lower the pressure above the wing.

Offline PMC

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Re: Human-powered helicopter
« Reply #26 on: August 16, 2004, 02:55:12 PM »
Quote

bloodline wrote:
I remember reading a book all about Lamina air flows and how insects can use Vorticies on the top surface of the wing increase the speed of the air, many years ago (probably about 15!).

when you think about it like that, it's hard to see why any one would think a Bumble Bee can't fly!



<>

The American P51 Mustang fighter of WW2 was revolutionary because it utilised a laminar flow wing.  This afforded great manoueverability without sacrficing speed and fuel economy through drag because the wing was excessively thick in chord.

<>

Until the advent of slow motion photography, physics was unable to explain how a four winged dragonfly remained aloft.  Wings that occur in nature have the ability to change shape to suit the conditions.  Insect wings flex to ensure both lift and thrust are delivered on up and down strokes.  Bird and mammal wings are more advanced and can physically change in shape to match the prevailing winds, thermals etc.  This is why a Peregrine Falcon can soar to a respectible altitude which requires an efficient lifting wing and still dive at speeds in excess of 200Mph, simply by folding the wing a certain way.
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Offline blobranaTopic starter

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Re: Human-powered helicopter
« Reply #27 on: August 16, 2004, 03:08:54 PM »
hum,
yeah,
>>Bumble Bees :
 i believe that their wings are crinkly and  bumpy which helps , also i imagine that  the air would take on different properties (become `stickier`) when you get smaller in size...




Though i do remember reading about dragonflies that were 1.5 meters in span that existed during the cretaceous (Earths atmosphere was denser)

update See!