Maybe...Its OUR Fault!

[MiAmigo]

Are we the reason that there hasn’t been a successful reboot of the Amiga? It could be that maybe we are.

The Amiga Communities – combined – consist of hundreds of fans of a machine that hasn’t existed as a continually renewing, evolving system for a long, long time. During that interim, all of us have developed our own ideas of what it could have been, and should have been, along with some pretty stubborn ideas of where it would go IF the brand were ever revived.

These beliefs are well-rooted in what we sincerely believe and want on a deep, even psychological level. So deep, in fact, we can scarcely agree on any of those aforementioned topics.

So, imagine a start-up, someone with a lot of money, deciding to revive the Amiga. If they tried to revive it ‘as’ the Amiga, they would run into an awful lot of contradicting and conflicting ideas, and, inevitably, some hostility, as different parties began to see that maybe the new venture was not going to go ‘their’ way. This would be a tricky situation, further complicated by the fact that the new owners would like to have US as their first and core customers, while at the same time trying not to alienate us.

And consider all of the vendors that still sell not only old Amiga hardware and software, but brand new stuff, such as AmigaKit. What would they do, as the new machines began to flood the market, possibly pushing aside the old machines? Would they adopt their stock to carry both, or would they not want to, thinking the new venture (like a bunch before it) was just another flash in the pan? That would mean yet another configuration/brand/version of 'former' Amiga makes and models to try to stock for.

And how would the world outside of the Amiga community react to the new machine? We’ve already seen (here on this forum) the resistance the new platform would encounter if it didn’t, by default, embrace Linux as part of the OS, if not the entire OS.

Right now, the bulk of the computing world's three major platforms (ignoring niches for the sake of argument) are Windows PCs, Linux, and Apple. Could the world make room for yet ‘another’ platform?

The market today is a vastly different one when Commodore, Atari, Coleco, TI (Texas Instruments), Exidy Sorcerer, and other long gone machines roamed the earth. Back then, we readily accepted the platform we liked, or that our friends had, and ignored or disparaged the rest. Those days are gone forever.

I think that new Amiga Company would run into a lot of these issues almost immediately, and maybe even alienate a lot of long time Amiga users who think that ‘their’ way is the ‘only’ way the machine should go, even if they did everything right, and did none of the things that most of us say we disliked.

Taking all that into account, probably the best way to go would be (as I have said in previous posts) to avoid the name and the brand altogether, and do an entire new machine that is ‘secretly’ inspired by, and based on the Amiga, and simply avoid a lot of trouble by not calling it that. Instead, let some wily customers figure it all out, and then deny it as a matter of course!

Heck, I’d even go so far as to (sneakily!) call it the ‘Lorraine’!
:knuddel:

[Cammy]

It's all my fault!

[itix]

Taking all that into account, probably the best way to go would be (as I have said in previous posts) to avoid the name and the brand altogether, and do an entire new machine that is ‘secretly’ inspired by, and based on the Amiga, and simply avoid a lot of trouble by not calling it that.

Not sure if we need new machine but it is better let old brand name go.

[NovaCoder]

I think it's the curse.

I think there was a chance for something good to have happened during the 90's but after that it was all too late.

[rewlako]

The Amiga Communities – combined – consist of hundreds of fans of a machine that hasn’t existed as a continually renewing, evolving system for a long, long time. During that interim, all of us have developed our own ideas of what it could have been, and should have been, along with some pretty stubborn ideas of where it would go IF the brand were ever revived.

It's not just the brand that needs to be revived.  There are currently a few crooks based in the states that are trying just that, slapping Commodore and Amiga stickers on PC's, claiming the classic machines are "back".

If they tried to revive it ‘as’ the Amiga, they would run into an awful lot of contradicting and conflicting ideas, and, inevitably, some hostility, as different parties began to see that maybe the new venture was not going to go ‘their’ way. This would be a tricky situation, further complicated by the fact that the new owners would like to have US as their first and core customers, while at the same time trying not to alienate us.

Well, if you want to revive something as the Amiga, you have to preserve some of the original feeling.  You can't put a T-Ford badge on a 2010 Toyota Camry and say the classic veteran is back.  Because it's not: it's new, and it's something completely different.

Taking all that into account, probably the best way to go would be (as I have said in previous posts) to avoid the name and the brand altogether, and do an entire new machine that is ‘secretly’ inspired by, and based on the Amiga, and simply avoid a lot of trouble by not calling it that.

Yes.  This.

If C=USA did that (and avoided the "Commodore" in their company name as well) I wouldn't even care what they did.  Who knows, maybe I would be a bit more supportive then, too.

So you are absolutely correct:  Avoid the name, don't market it as something it's not, and no nerves will be struck.

[bloodline]

The community fracturing occurred due to poor and incompetent leadership of the brand and product. Not the other way around

Amiga as a brand and a product is over, at least we still have our opensource hardware and software implementations of the machine we love and can enjoy it for as long as we need

[spirantho]

@MiAmigo

For many of us, what you describe is what AmigaOS 4 is to us.
Whatever comes out is never going to have custom chips (it's just not necessary nor financially viable). Nor is it going to flood any markets (the market is sewn up almost entirely by Windows/Apple/Linux).
What we have for AmigaOS 4 is a current AmigaOS on specific hardware (custom built, even, for the X1000 - hence the high price).

For others, the solution is MorphOS. For others, AROS. But I don't see what's wrong with that. The point is that none of them are a bad or "the wrong" solution, and all have their own niche... and that's a good thing, not just a bad one.
The only time the current situation looks bad is when you look at it from a point of view of taking on the "big boys" - but we're never going to do that, so surely better to enjoy what we have, support the platforms - whatever flavour they are - that we like, and encourage our own little niche and thereby survive.

We're never going to be huge like the rest of the market - let's use that as an advantage, because it's a strength as much as a weakness.

[Gilloo]

Not my fault if I don't buy/use AmigaOS4...

[klx300r]

@ spirantho

+ 1.  whether I'm using WB 1.1 on my A1000 or OS4.1 update 5 on my X1000 or AspireOS on my netbook I'm still to this day very much enjoying it and that's all that matters really.

I use Windows, Linux on a regular basis but still always feel at home with Amiga and we have the best community hands down :pint:(barring the infighting bs that is;))

[Digiman]

I think the first thing to ask is what would you consider as a successful reboot of the Amiga?

1, Amiga, (or Amiga 1000 as it was later called) with it's slam-dunking of EVERY desktop and home computer that money could buy in both hardware and OS? PC was still on DOS..DOS!!! FFS Mac had NO COLOUR AT ALL!! etc. So witness Defender of the Crown and Marble Madness on PC or Mac vs Amiga [1000]

2, Amiga 500/2000 with some quite important advantages in many areas but not technically the best (VGA had been invented) as had some very high end sound cards for PCs. But still versatility and power in Amiga chipset and of course superior OS to Windows 286. Witness 512kb game Shadow of the Beast opening level for example. Also Lotus Challenge 2 requires 25mhz 486 (not invented for another 3 years!) to equal the speed and smoothness of the Amiga 500/1000/2000 version regardless of when the software was developed, it runs on a stock A1000.

3, Amiga 3000 - again getting less technically superior, now relying on things like easy to genlock and native TV signal frequency and aspect ratio (something PCs still found hard)

4, Amiga 4000/040, one of the first 24bit 720p still image (at 2.35:1 widescreen anamorphic picture output) photorealistic computers and one of the first computers able to handle 128mb of RAM. But certainly not cheaper £/mhz sometimes. Terrible audio for a 1991 £2000 computer etc

5, Amiga 1200 - good start with slightly breathed over improvement in graphics (HAM 8 in super hi-res still technologically superior to XGA cards) but with more expensive expansion options over PC (no sound expansion, memory only on complex expensive trapdoor cards, 2.5" very expensive laptop hard drives required etc) but still could sometimes beat a Pentium 100 PC like Super Stardust AGA.

So what is it you want?

In my opinion the X1000 does nothing of even the above, and neither does SAM460 based computers. The OS doesn't do anything you can not do on Linux/OS X/Windows and the hardware again doesn't do anything a cheaper PC or identically priced Mac doesn't and in many cases falls very short compared to Intel i7 and suitable 64bit OS.

And there you have the problem, had the X1000 team had the same sort of cunning ingenious design ideas as the Xbox 360 team then maybe 3,4,5 could have happened again in some sense, they didn't they used a rubbish motherboard design and a decade old G5 CPU that costs more than it's weight in platinum encrusted with diamonds.

As far as I am concerned it has to be number 1, the A1000 all over again. And seeing as this will NEVER happen in our lifetimes until computing goes analogue and bio-chemical new frontiers. So for me the users are not the problem, Commodore was the problem by letting the beautiful A1000s advantage rot away to nothing by the time of the cheap and nasty CD32 console. Any company purchasing the Amiga would not invest 100s of millions to make a Sony Playstation level of graphical/audio sophistication desktop computer for £999 again.

IF ANYTHING THE USERS SOLD AMIGA TO OTHER PEOPLE BETTER THAN ANY OTHER GROUP OF USERS IN THE HISTORY OF COMPUTERS AND IN THE FACE OF MASSIVE ENGINEERING AND BUSINESS STRATEGIC DECISIONS MADE OVER A WHOLE DECADE FROM 1985 TO 1994.

In our universe in this timeline that is how it turned out, in another universe where thickos didn't buy 128k Macs or EGA PCs or pathetic disgusting childish rubbish from Nintendo on NES then there might be forums asking why the 486 PC failed

(obviously some people would be happy with options 3-5 and even 2 but it's all about opinion, I would buy something like scenario 2 but not 3-5, and actually scenario 1 is the true second messiah of computing)

[Digiman]

Not my fault if I don't buy/use AmigaOS4...

Well said. What difference does it make if I list items for sale on ebay using Windows/OSX/Morph/OS4/Linux.

Without the OS AND computer with bespoke price/performance shattering technology being designed by the same company the Amiga lost it's advantage. OS4 compatible <> Amiga in my book and nor is a smelly 15 year old Mac with Morph Amiga. Amiga died with Escom (and Amiga designed computers died with Commodore and CD32)

[spirantho]

@Digiman

I don't agree with some of what you say, but on other parts you're bang on the money.
3,4,5 are these days just as impossible as 1. Why? Because there's cheap commodity hardware out there for everything we could do that would be useful.
The X1000 was always caught between a rock and a hard place - either be commodity hardware (and affordable) or custom hardware (and very expensive). There's no "correct" option available to it. The X1000 team were miniscule compared to the Xbox 360 team, and they were working to a far tighter budget because they knew from the start that demand was going to be very small.

The Amiga will never be the powerhouse it once was, simply because the market has changed entirely. It's impossible to stand out and be affordable, because generic technology is just so cheap these days. To be honest, though, I don't use an Amiga because it's got "Amiga" written on it. I use it because I enjoy it. OS4 is good for me, but not everyone: horses for courses.

The days of custom hardware for the masses are gone - it's custom hardware for the geeks now.... but I don't see what's so bad about that. Just don't expect it to somehow rise up and annihilate Windows any time soon.

[JimNeray]

Maybe ... :roflmao:

[ppcamiga1]

I think the first thing to ask is what would you consider as a successful reboot of the Amiga?

1, Amiga, (or Amiga 1000 as it was later called) with it's slam-dunking of EVERY desktop and home computer that money could buy in both hardware and OS? PC was still on DOS..DOS!!! FFS Mac had NO COLOUR AT ALL!! etc. So witness Defender of the Crown and Marble Madness on PC or Mac vs Amiga [1000]

Very good machine better than anything that pc and mac offers.

2, Amiga 500/2000 with some quite important advantages in many areas but not technically the best (VGA had been invented) as had some very high end sound cards for PCs.  

1987 - Apple introduces the first mac with true color.

3, Amiga 3000 - again getting less technically superior, now relying on things like easy to genlock and native TV signal frequency and aspect ratio (something PCs still found hard)

1990 - Macintosh with 68030 and true color card (not accelerated ) 2 MB VRAM costs less than Amiga 3000.

4, Amiga 4000/040, one of the first 24bit 720p still image (at 2.35:1 widescreen anamorphic picture output) photorealistic computers and one of the first computers able to handle 128mb of RAM. But certainly not cheaper £/mhz sometimes. Terrible audio for a 1991 £2000 computer etc

1992 - were available cheap SVGA card for PC, with 24-bit  true color at at a resolution of 640x480, 16 bit color at a resolution of 800x600.
Mac also has a 24-bit color.
And even Atari has chunky pixel and 16 bit color.
 

 5, Amiga 1200 - good start with slightly breathed over improvement in graphics (HAM 8 in super hi-res still technologically superior to XGA cards) but with more expensive expansion options over PC (no sound expansion, memory only on complex expensive trapdoor cards, 2.5" very expensive laptop hard drives required etc) but still could sometimes beat a Pentium 100 PC like Super Stardust AGA.

 Not because it could not be done.
But because in 1996 when Stardust was ported to PC, PC users have first working 3D accelerator VooDoo and no one was interested in 2D games where you can play great looking 3D games.

   So what is it you want?

In my opinion the X1000 does nothing of even the above, and neither does SAM460 based computers. The OS doesn't do anything you can not do on Linux/OS X/Windows and the hardware again doesn't do anything a cheaper PC or identically priced Mac doesn't and in many cases falls very short compared to Intel i7 and suitable 64bit OS.

  Exactly the same as the Amiga 1200 and Amiga 4000.
In 1992, PC users have MS Word, MS Excel, Adobe Photoshop.
And everything You could do on the Amiga You could do on cheaper PC.
And since 1993, even games were much better on PC.

[lsmart]

In 1992, PC users have MS Word, MS Excel, Adobe Photoshop.
And everything You could do on the Amiga You could do on cheaper PC.
And since 1993, even games were much better on PC.

Yes, it was Commodores fault, that the Amiga "died". The problem is: Amiga fans never mattered in terms of a market force. They were too few, even in 1990, to make a large international corporation interested. While Commodore was small and trying to get brand recognition it was sufficient to sell a relatively small number of PET computers (or KIM-1 for that matter). But in 1990 they compared themselves to the PC market, which was exploding. Giving PC R&D one million seemed to be a much better investment than to give half of it to Amiga developers.

The thing is that the culture of home computing has shifted from a technical hobby to a media consumption passtime. Big media wants big money and they want total control.
The PC is chreap, because they sell so many of them. We won' t see any alternative plattform with a smaller audience that will be competatively priced.

If you want something like the Amiga to happen again. You will need radically low prices and you will have to survive on a razor thin profit margin. This is *NOT* our fault. It is however a major turnoff for most companies. Charging 200$ for a case like CUSA or 2000$ for an X1000 is not about starting a reboot, but about selling a few units to diehard lovers, who are neither young nor dependent on the functionality of their newest toy.