Re: Op-Eddie: All Your Amigas are Belong to Us

[Heiroglyph]

This was posted in an area that doesn't allow discussion, so I posted my reply here.

So why all of a sudden have we preoccupied ourselves with this issue of corporate level IP ownership? I guess we all like to see a good fight, but why should we users care about names, brands, or IP rights to place specific program code on a specific microprocessor architecture? Have we all forgotten what owning and using an Amiga is all about? And it’s not about what we use it for, the forgotten question is why we use it?

It's not that we care which company owns Workbench or the ROMS, the companies that are restricting the free trade of what amounts to abandonware are the ones forcing the users to care about IP ownership.

There is a forced artificial shortage of working disks and ROMS that isn't helping the community to grow and even preventing it from staying at the same level legally.

There are several companies willing to restrict the flow of these vital parts of the Amiga Classic, but none to contact for licensing it.

No one in the community can get a license for distribution on the growing base of FPGA based systems, yet we can legally have our websites shut down and charges drawn up by companies with licenses that have surely expired yet continue to profit from the Amiga corpse.  Who writes distribution licenses in perpetuity?  Who is receiving the license fees if they are still being paid at all?

Do you not think that any remaining Amiga retailer wouldn't like to make a few bucks selling new OS kits?  Sure they would, but they can only sell what they can dig up. Instead, pirates sell eproms and CDR's full of ADF's on Ebay while upstanding members of the community lose money and wither away.

It seems that calling their bluff on proof of ownership is the only way to get a straight answer as to who, if anyone, legally has the rights to license this artificially limited resource or if it has slipped into the public domain.

Once all the ancient floppies and ROM's are gone, there is no legal way to make more.  Then only outlaws will be Amigans, so there is your patriotism.

[amigadave]

So much FUD has been spread on this topic, it is getting very old and boring to read every day.  New Kickstart ROMs are still being sold by at least a few retailers and no matter if you like it or not, Colanto is selling a package that includes all versions of the floppy disk images, so you can "legally" re-create your non-working floppy disks that way.

All this complaining and moaning is not going to accomplish anything, until and unless someone actually wants to put up the money to fight it out in court and finally get it resolved one way or the other, and I doubt that is going to happen, so this is all a big waste of time and bandwidth.

[NovaCoder]

It seems that calling their bluff on proof of ownership is the only way to get a straight answer as to who, if anyone, legally has the rights to license

It seems that most legal battles are won by those with the deepest pockets but anyway, I do agree.   If someone (and I don't think there is anyone who would qualify) had the $$$ to mount a decent legal case against the ROM/WB legal position it would be shown that nobody really owns anything much.

[AmigaHeretic]

Colanto is selling a package that includes all versions of the floppy disk images, so you can "legally" re-create your non-working floppy disks that way.

OMG!!!!!!

Dude you can't. :rtfm::rtfm::rtfm::rtfm::rtfm::rtfm::rtfm:

http://www.amigaforever.com/kb/13-145

Rrrrreeeeaaaaaaddddd ttttthhhheeeee llllliiiiiinnnnnkkkkkkkk!!!  :rtfm:

[psxphill]

OMG!!!!!!
 
Dude you can't. :rtfm::rtfm::rtfm::rtfm::rtfm::rtfm::rtfm:
 
http://www.amigaforever.com/kb/13-145
 
Rrrrreeeeaaaaaaddddd ttttthhhheeeee llllliiiiiinnnnnkkkkkkkk!!! :rtfm:

The difference is that it becomes a simple case of home copyright infringement, which under US law would fall under fair use anyway. Nobody would ever know.
 
If you mass distribute them then it's a more serious crime and it's very easy for people to find you. In no way can it be classed as fair use.

[amigadave]

OMG!!!!!!

Dude you can't. :rtfm::rtfm::rtfm::rtfm::rtfm::rtfm::rtfm:

http://www.amigaforever.com/kb/13-145

Rrrrreeeeaaaaaaddddd ttttthhhheeeee llllliiiiiinnnnnkkkkkkkk!!!  :rtfm:

OMG! Re-read it yourself.  It does not say that it can't be done, it says only "in some cases, probably not".  It also states that some ROM images won't work, but unless you are thinking of burning your own Kickstart ROMs, that is not an issue.  Making your own Workbench floppy disks should not be a problem, though I have not tried it myself yet, as I can still get my original floppy disks to do an install by switching disks when an error occurs from one set to another as the errors are in different locations on each set of faulty disks.

The EULA for AmigaForever probably forbids the making of Workbench floppy disks, if it mentions this topic at all, because that is the way the license was originally written, but since when has an EULA ever stopped anyone from doing anything.

Grow up and move on to something that is actually interesting to the Amiga community and that you can get some results from!  The chances of any of this being resolved are near zero, and if it is not resolved in court, nothing is going to change the way Amigas are used every day now.  Move on to something productive.

[TheBilgeRat]

OMG! Re-read it yourself.  It does not say that it can't be done, it says only "in some cases, probably not".  It also states that some ROM images won't work, but unless you are thinking of burning your own Kickstart ROMs, that is not an issue.  Making your own Workbench floppy disks should not be a problem, though I have not tried it myself yet, as I can still get my original floppy disks to do an install by switching disks when an error occurs from one set to another as the errors are in different locations on each set of faulty disks.

The EULA for AmigaForever probably forbids the making of Workbench floppy disks, if it mentions this topic at all, because that is the way the license was originally written, but since when has an EULA ever stopped anyone from doing anything.

Grow up and move on to something that is actually interesting to the Amiga community and that you can get some results from!  The chances of any of this being resolved are near zero, and if it is not resolved in court, nothing is going to change the way Amigas are used every day now.  Move on to something productive.

I think the issue is that mostly all of us would like an easy, LEGAL way of obtaining the classic software or ROM images for our original machines, without having to deal with attitude, bullshit, and accusations of piracy.
 There are two answers to this desire: 1. STFU and steal them (say, from google); or 2.  Buy AmigaForever (even if you don't run windows) and maybe be able to make a set of disks from that (even if it is against the EULA).  
 
Neither one of these solutions are acceptable, nor sustainable.  I am sorry that they are tiresome to read about, and it must be nice for you to have enough sets to not worry about it, but then again we are not you, nor at this point could most people be, considering that you have an immense collection of Amiga stuff and have been collecting uninterrupted since 1985 or so .

 There is absolutely no reason why we as a community with MONEY IN HAND should not know who to pay to receive quality OEM software for our classic amigas.  We have lots of projects coming out that require it (NatAmi, FPGAArcade, Minimig).  Lots of us want our hobby to attract more people, people who shouldn't have to resort to theft to even participate, or be forced to violate a EULA to do so.  ROMS and disks/.adfs should be easily available, regardless of which drama queen du jour is shouting it (perhaps in a scots accent).

[commodorejohn]

New Kickstart ROMs are still being sold by at least a few retailers and no matter if you like it or not, Colanto is selling a package that includes all versions of the floppy disk images, so you can "legally" re-create your non-working floppy disks that way.

Okay, what part of "Amiga Forever disk images do not work on real Amigas" do you not get? Because, news flash, they don't.

Anyway, an emphatic +1 to OP here. Well-said, Heiroglyph!

[AmigaHeretic]

The difference is that it becomes a simple case of home copyright infringement, which under US law would fall under fair use anyway. Nobody would ever know.
 
If you mass distribute them then it's a more serious crime and it's very easy for people to find you. In no way can it be classed as fair use.

First we are talking about a "legal" way for anybody to obtains disk utlimatily.  Though I don't know if that will ever happen.

Second, you are telling me to break the law.  Ok, fine. But you are telling me to pay someone to then break the law.  Why would I pay money only to the break the law?  Why not just download them them?

The other part is the disks on Amiga Forever are not all the same as the original Commodore disks.  So if I am using the images to repair an original disk that does me no good even if it was 100% legal.  Again, no one gets this.

[desiv]

The EULA for AmigaForever probably forbids the making of Workbench floppy disks, if it mentions this topic at all, because that is the way the license was originally written, but since when has an EULA ever stopped anyone from doing anything.

So, in order to make sure people don't violate copyright licenses, you recommend that they (possibly) viloate EULAs instead?

Just trying to see where your "acceptable license violation" line is..
(We all have one..  Mine's more a dotted line really)

desiv

[persia]

It is more than likely legal for you to use the Cloanto Kickstart, Workbench and ADFs for any purpose you want so long as you don't distribute them to somebody else.  EULA has barely been tested in the US and not at all in the EU or Australia.  To make a blanket statement that it's somehow illegal to use them in ways that violate the EULA at this early date in digital copyright is horribly premature.  Give it another 5 or 10 years and we'll have a much better idea of what EULA is and how much it applies.

There are three camps right now, one that says EULA is a legally binding contract, one that says there is no contract whatsoever in EULA and one that says SOME bits of the EULA are enforceable.  My bet is with the SOME camp but my heart is in the none camp.  

Bottom line, is using Cloanto's software on a physical Amiga illegal?  Probably not.  Is putting it up on a website for all to download illegal?  Yes.

[desiv]

Bottom line, is using Cloanto's software on a physical Amiga illegal?  Probably not.  Is putting it up on a website for all to download illegal?  Yes.

That's kind of where I am...
Although I am also hearing that the ADFs on the Cloanto distribution aren't the originals.  They've been modified and as such, don't work (or not as well or) on REAL Amigas...

I have no idea if or how true that is tho, but it's come up in the other thread..

desiv

[runequester]

That's kind of where I am...
Although I am also hearing that the ADFs on the Cloanto distribution aren't the originals.  They've been modified and as such, don't work (or not as well or) on REAL Amigas...

I have no idea if or how true that is tho, but it's come up in the other thread..

desiv

Surely this is something that can be verified ? Just need a volunteer

[Franko]

So much FUD has been spread on this topic, it is getting very old and boring to read every day.  New Kickstart ROMs are still being sold by at least a few retailers and no matter if you like it or not, Colanto is selling a package that includes all versions of the floppy disk images, so you can "legally" re-create your non-working floppy disks that way.

All this complaining and moaning is not going to accomplish anything, until and unless someone actually wants to put up the money to fight it out in court and finally get it resolved one way or the other, and I doubt that is going to happen, so this is all a big waste of time and bandwidth.

Love how everything everyone else has to say about a topic you don't like or agree with is always "a big waste of time and bandwidth" in your opinion but you can't help posting on these things that you consider to be "a big waste of time and bandwidth" still a hypocrite to the end I see...

OMG! Re-read it yourself. It does not say that it can't be done, it says only "in some cases, probably not". It also states that some ROM images won't work, but unless you are thinking of burning your own Kickstart ROMs, that is not an issue. Making your own Workbench floppy disks should not be a problem, though I have not tried it myself yet, as I can still get my original floppy disks to do an install by switching disks when an error occurs from one set to another as the errors are in different locations on each set of faulty disks.

The EULA for AmigaForever probably forbids the making of Workbench floppy disks, if it mentions this topic at all, because that is the way the license was originally written, but since when has an EULA ever stopped anyone from doing anything.

Grow up and move on to something that is actually interesting to the Amiga community and that you can get some results from! The chances of any of this being resolved are near zero, and if it is not resolved in court, nothing is going to change the way Amigas are used every day now. Move on to something productive.

See what I mean...

Well considering the "other" thread on this topic has over 9000 views and over 350 replies in comparison to other threads I would say that this proves the Amiga Community has a great interest in this topic...

Always a grumpy old bugger aint you, no wonder you don't keep too well, lighten up a bit and smile once in while instead of complaining about things and people you don't like or like to have talked about and then you go on to talk about them anyway... :rolleyes:

PS: On the advice you like to give "Move on to something productive.", out of curiosity when was the last time you followed your own advice, can't seem to recall you posting anything productive lately...

[Kesa]

Love how everything everyone else has to say about a topic you don't like or agree with is always "a big waste of time and bandwidth" in your opinion but you can't help posting on these things that you consider to be "a big waste of time and bandwidth" still a hypocrite to the end I see...



See what I mean...

Well considering the "other" thread on this topic has over 9000 views and over 350 replies in comparison to other threads I would say that this proves the Amiga Community has a great interest in this topic...

Always a grumpy old bugger aint you, no wonder you don't keep too well, lighten up a bit and smile once in while instead of complaining about things and people you don't like or like to have talked about and then you go on to talk about them anyway... :rolleyes:

PS: On the advice you like to give "Move on to something productive.", out of curiosity when was the last time you followed your own advice, can't seem to recall you posting anything productive lately...

Actually i think he is starting to sound like Wayne Hunt being negative and all...  :rolleyes: