Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Author Topic: Amiga 1200 versus Atari Falcon?  (Read 18215 times)

Description:

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Iggy

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Join Date: Aug 2009
  • Posts: 5348
    • Show only replies by Iggy
Re: Amiga 1200 versus Atari Falcon?
« Reply #44 from previous page: December 28, 2010, 03:07:47 PM »
Quote from: Digiman;602442
Hmmm well Atari were losing interest after the battering the ST got from Amiga by 92/93 so the Falcon was assigned far less dev costs. There is nothing essential about making Falcon 16bit design at all except it was a quick and dirty hack for ST compatibility.

The issue with AGA is similar, in order to keep some reasonable compatibility for OCS games they were a bit limited because Amiga is a very complex chipset and any game worth a damn is hitting the hardware directly. The way Sony did it was to put PS2 custom chips on the PS3 motherboard. Commodore could have done that too, put two Paula chips onboard or integrate 2 into 1 package for sound compatibility AND improvement (like dual SID and Pokey boards for 8bit machines now) and keep cheapest Agnus and Denise in there. Then just create a super fast 32bit blitter and new screen mode chip for new modes. This would have cost more though and probably put the price of A1200 at £500.

It's a shame both Commodore and Atari got the 'console market' bug again, both flopped with C64GS and Atari 7800/Lynx so why try again? Commodore actually finished A1400 motherboard but wasted the last of their cash on pathetic CD32 which had no answer for SNES SuperFX equipped games thanks to a crippled chip ram only forever design on the 14mhz 020.

Had Atari stuck the Jaguar chipset into an ST styled casing it would have sold more than Falcon and could have sold about the same as Amiga 1200 if they wanted to hammer the market. No PC would have touched that for gaming and you can write letters on an Amstrad z80 based machine so business software users got plenty of power too.


Wow! Concise and accurate. I can't add anything to that, you're absolutely right. If enough development resources had been commited, these companies might still be in the game. It's a damned shame.
"Not making any hard and fast rules means that the moderators can use their good judgment in moderation, and we think the results speak for themselves." - Amiga.org, terms of service

"You, got to stem the evil tide, and keep it on the the inside" - Rogers Waters

"God was never on your side" - Lemmy

Amiga! "Our appeal has become more selective"
 

Offline Digiman

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Join Date: May 2010
  • Posts: 1045
    • Show only replies by Digiman
Re: Amiga 1200 versus Atari Falcon?
« Reply #45 on: December 28, 2010, 03:11:25 PM »
Quote from: Iggy;602412


Still you have to admit, current game consoles are very miggy.


That's because the whole ethos of Amiga 1000 (and to a less powerful degree A500) was to produce games far far superior to those that came before (PC EGA/ST/Mac/ALL 8bit consoles and computers) AND provide more powerful computing than the most expensive PC/MAC/ST at the time too. So priced somewhere between the two camps of last gen console and next gen PC/Mac.

By a general rule of thumb the Amiga 500 was double the cost of a comparable console like the Sega Genesis/Megadrive (games were half the price though!), and half the price or less than equivalent PC in 1990. PS3 is double the price of Wii but it is a full blown Linux box (original shiny PS3 will not remove BIOS option for Other OS, only plasticy PS3 Slim which has no such option is a problem...so 35 million machines are OK for Linux use still) but you would need to spend £1000 to get PS3 quality graphics via Win7/Vista box (XP is only DirectX 9.0c max).
 

Offline Pentad

Re: Amiga 1200 versus Atari Falcon?
« Reply #46 on: December 28, 2010, 03:24:33 PM »
When I read and post in threads like these, I think they are a great deal of fun.  Debating who had the better hardware and what each company should have done is like reliving some history.

However, it makes me sad to think that Commodore, Atari, Ti, Tandy, and many others really helped to shape the computer landscape but are forgotten in the folds of history.

I am grateful that Brian Bagnall decided to write about Commodore and fill in gaps that many of us had wondered about.

In truth, I wish Brian -or another like him- would do the same for Atari.   While there are other companies that helped shape the computer landscape, I cannot think of another company -besides Commodore- that had such a colorful line of products.

I would love to read some insider stuff on the 400/800, the XLs, the STs, and their consoles...   Atari really had a dizzying array of products that were both good and bad.   I bet there are some great stories just waiting to be told.

Today, almost all the books dwell on Apple and Microsoft with a smattering of IBM thrown in but the landscape was much more then these three companies.

-P
Linux User (Arch & OpenSUSE TW) - WinUAE via WINE
 

Offline Iggy

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Join Date: Aug 2009
  • Posts: 5348
    • Show only replies by Iggy
Re: Amiga 1200 versus Atari Falcon?
« Reply #47 on: December 28, 2010, 03:27:27 PM »
Quote from: Digiman;602449
That's because the whole ethos of Amiga 1000 (and to a less powerful degree A500) was to produce games far far superior to those that came before (PC EGA/ST/Mac/ALL 8bit consoles and computers) AND provide more powerful computing than the most expensive PC/MAC/ST at the time too. So priced somewhere between the two camps of last gen console and next gen PC/Mac.

By a general rule of thumb the Amiga 500 was double the cost of a comparable console like the Sega Genesis/Megadrive (games were half the price though!), and half the price or less than equivalent PC in 1990. PS3 is double the price of Wii but it is a full blown Linux box (original shiny PS3 will not remove BIOS option for Other OS, only plasticy PS3 Slim which has no such option is a problem...so 35 million machines are OK for Linux use still) but you would need to spend £1000 to get PS3 quality graphics via Win7/Vista box (XP is only DirectX 9.0c max).


YES! THhat's where I've been getting all the flack lately from people on this forum who don't understand my point of view. The original 1000 was brilliant. The 500 was a lower cost console using the same components that probably appealed better to Commodores traditional market.

Their failure was in not fully developing future models. Sticking a faster processor in it or adding a lame video enhancement with no other improvements was bogus. Commoodore dis not design the Amiga, and they had no idea how to advance such a revolutionary system.

And now we're having simplistic arguements over whether or not you "hate" the AGA system. Heck, what I hate ios the fact that with each generation after the 1000 and 500 they didn't keep enhancing EVERYTHING to keep up with the improvements in their CPUs.

Lame ass bean counters cost us the personal computing crown. We had a much better processor and the companies using it failed us. Its hard to believe that the perpetually kludged X86 has become the processor of choice. How many design revisions of that crap have we seen just to make it tolerable and the systems are still huge resource hogs.
"Not making any hard and fast rules means that the moderators can use their good judgment in moderation, and we think the results speak for themselves." - Amiga.org, terms of service

"You, got to stem the evil tide, and keep it on the the inside" - Rogers Waters

"God was never on your side" - Lemmy

Amiga! "Our appeal has become more selective"
 

Offline save2600

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Join Date: Jul 2006
  • Posts: 3261
  • Country: us
    • Show only replies by save2600
Re: Amiga 1200 versus Atari Falcon?
« Reply #48 on: December 28, 2010, 03:41:31 PM »
Quote from: Iggy;602455
Their failure was in not fully developing future models. Sticking a faster processor in it or adding a lame video enhancement with no other improvements was bogus.
Well, I wouldn't call merging OCS/ECS with a FF/SD "lame", but Atari made the same exact mistakes in not developing their 8-bits either. Adding a little extra RAM here and there. Changing the case design. Yeah, there's some real advancements for 'ya! Each incarnation of the ST's weren't much better, but there's definitely evolutional retardation to be witnessed in both camps. Personally, I feel the beginning of the end for both companies was when Tramiel left Commodore. In one fell swoop, that move doomed both Atari AND Commodore. Amazing it took them as long as it did though - which might say something about the Amiga's resilience. Either way, I'm starting to think the Illuminati were a part of this crippling consumer choice. :lol:

Quote
Lame ass bean counters cost us the personal computing crown. We had a much better processor and the companies using it failed us. Its hard to believe that the perpetually kludged X86 has become the processor of choice. How many design revisions of that crap have we seen just to make it tolerable and the systems are still huge resource hogs.
Couldn't agree more  :)
 

Offline MarkTime

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Join Date: Jun 2002
  • Posts: 901
    • Show only replies by MarkTime
    • http://www.tanooshka.com
Re: Amiga 1200 versus Atari Falcon?
« Reply #49 on: December 28, 2010, 03:52:00 PM »
Quote from: Iggy;602455
Its hard to believe that the perpetually kludged X86 has become the processor of choice. How many design revisions of that crap have we seen just to make it tolerable and the systems are still huge resource hogs.

Yes and no.  It's not really the processor of choice for mobile devices, like Tablets, smartphones - and in my opinion these are becoming the 'personal computers' of the future.  ARM, it looks like, has an early lead as the processor of choice for the next generation of computing.  And I think we'll even see more arm based netbooks, as time goes on.  

In any event, I don't consider x86 to be all that bad, since around the time AMD released Opteron, and Intel later released core duo.  I mean from the perspective of a technology consumer, the market is much more satisfying.    I liked the Commodore 64, Atari 800 - I was still a big fan of the Atari ST, Amiga 500 - I made the transition to 16 bit without considering the 'pc' market.

But by the time Amiga 1200 came out - even though I owned one, that AGA graphics was pathetic, and it just wasn't realistic trying to get a graphics card for one, so you started looking at the big box amiga's and they were ridiculous in price.  Apple was in love with the high price too.   One had to reluctantly consider the PC.

Nowadays that has changed, I'm happy with the Mac market - it may be slightly less competitive than the pc market, but not by much.  you can get a nice intel based mac from ebay for 500 bucks - it's not quite the multi-thousand dollar proposition that buying a big box amiga or mac was, back in those days.
 

Offline Hattig

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Join Date: Feb 2002
  • Posts: 901
    • Show only replies by Hattig
Re: Amiga 1200 versus Atari Falcon?
« Reply #50 on: December 28, 2010, 04:28:22 PM »
I'm with MarkTime - I don't think x86-64 is all that bad because it does fix a lot of the problems with x86, especially the number of registers and non-orthogonal instructions. And the implementations run fast and get a very high instructions-per-clock too.

Back in the 80s though, the 68k was king, the custom chipset in the A1000 was astounding, and it was all good. The A500 was all good too, getting the technology into a far cheaper product. But we had 1985 hardware until 1992, with no upgrades apart from ECS! AGA would have been great in 1988, and expected in 1990 - and that's an AGA that had a full 32-bit blitter and ran faster internally. It did come, eventually, and was not what it should have been, and that is Commodore's fault. At least it came out.

A better hardware release plan would have been something like:

1985: OCS
1988: OCS + ECS + 32-bit Blitter + 64 palette entries + 8 bitplane support (incl. HAM-8) and 18-bit colour palette.
1992: Above + 16-bit sound, 8 sound channels, 256 palette entries, more sprites, byteplanes (chunky graphics), alpha transparency in sprites and multiple playfields, etc...

Instead it seems that the engineers got distracted by new chipsets and gave up on the incremental upgrades - probably because that wasn't the done thing in the 80s.

Things like Natami are for hobbyists to get a possible dream 1996 Amiga, with the hardware that could have been.
 

Offline Digiman

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Join Date: May 2010
  • Posts: 1045
    • Show only replies by Digiman
Re: Amiga 1200 versus Atari Falcon?
« Reply #51 on: December 28, 2010, 04:43:13 PM »
The STE was quite a serious improvement early on, but once A500 was down to £400 STE was doomed (around 1990). Also games programmers screwed over just as many STE owners as Amiga owner with games that rarely used the blitter on either.

Thing is, Commodore bought Amiga as is off the shelf (and sacked half the Hi-Toro engineers to cut costs) so improving it was no simple task and EVERY new iteration of a chipset enhancement would require herculean efforts to make new games look better instantly AND none of your old games improved.

On the other hand, playing original ST games on a 16mhz 68000 based machine is much more productive...Gauntlet 1 and Lotus II become more playable and run smoother and faster. And there is the key, the original ST and PC only needed faster CPUs to improve your entire games catalogue. So once PCs were getting their VGA graphics in arcade games as standard that was the point of critical mass (between 1990-1991). Poor old Amiga though, not only suffered at the hands of incompetent ST-ports (not even STE ports FFS) BUT even if you bought your A1200 none of the old non-polygon based games improved....Xenon II was still slow as hell like playing an arcade game sunken in treacle.

I feel sorry for Commodore because they had chosen the hardest route, all custom chip based performance = difficult to keep updating as games programmers don't write for unsold/tiny marketshare machines (ie the same problem STE owners had!). How pissed off would you be if every 2-3 years you got shafted the same way A600 buyers felt in early 1992 before A1200 was announced out of the blue that Autumn. Tricky business decisions there.

To be totally frank, the ST was a 16bit replacement for the Commodore PET, that's all it is. If it didn't have the name Atari stuck on it and came in a nice Amiga 1000/3000 style slimline case it would have wiped the floor with the original Macintosh at 1/3 the price for a superior machine. Anyone who bought a Mac or PC XT/AT in the 80s was an idiot :)

And it was Irving Gould who refused to upgrade the Amiga CPU, he is famously quoted as saying 7mhz 68000 is enough for Amiga users around 1990.

Of course if Commodore had sold the A1000 just 20% cheaper AND ACTUALLY MARKETED IT they would have had enough sales in the bag to make the A500 a 12mhz 68000 (fastest PC AT speed) and then A500+ could have been 16mhz plus what AGA was (2 extra bitplanes tacked onto OCS) to give reasonable 128/256 colour speed for 1990s when everyone in PC land had crappy ISA 286/16 machines anyway for home use.

And what numbnuts decided in all-in-one designs? They look like toys next to PCs and Macs sorry. How much extra does an A1000 keyboard cost than an A500 one inside the case? Bugger all that's what :)
 

Offline Iggy

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Join Date: Aug 2009
  • Posts: 5348
    • Show only replies by Iggy
Re: Amiga 1200 versus Atari Falcon?
« Reply #52 on: December 28, 2010, 04:59:19 PM »
All incredibly valid points. What I hold against the X86 isn the constant additions to its incredibly large instruction set. But as an owber of a Phenom X3, I will admit that X86-64 is a very strong performer.
However, Intel may just find the legacy of the long dead Acorn (ARM) sneaking up on them.
I've seen announcements for a 2Gjhz dual core processor to be produced in China next year and Freescale's claiming a future 4Ghz unit (that would definately compete directly against X86).
"Not making any hard and fast rules means that the moderators can use their good judgment in moderation, and we think the results speak for themselves." - Amiga.org, terms of service

"You, got to stem the evil tide, and keep it on the the inside" - Rogers Waters

"God was never on your side" - Lemmy

Amiga! "Our appeal has become more selective"
 

Offline Hattig

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Join Date: Feb 2002
  • Posts: 901
    • Show only replies by Hattig
Re: Amiga 1200 versus Atari Falcon?
« Reply #53 on: December 28, 2010, 05:07:28 PM »
Oh definitely, ARM is sneaking up on Intel just as the market is shifting towards tablets and mobile devices. Marvell has quad-core ARMs on the market soon, 2GHz dual-core A9s will be along soon enough, A15 is coming in the future... and they will all be beyond the current 'good enough' performance level.
 

Offline Digiman

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Join Date: May 2010
  • Posts: 1045
    • Show only replies by Digiman
Re: Amiga 1200 versus Atari Falcon?
« Reply #54 on: December 28, 2010, 09:50:32 PM »
I have an interview with one of the chief Arm designers explaining Archimedes CPU really well, if I knew how to split the vid into 3x 10min chunks then I'd upload it to Youtube. Even he first chip finished in 1985 was 25mhz 030/020 performance!

With my 'new' X64 laptop I may even be able to record AVIs from WinUAE with sound too so expect more of my zany obscure games vids on Youtube too! haha

(not new new because new laptops are cock that can't run games newer than 1999 due to pathetic GPUs, mine is just a 2.2 T7400 Inspiron 9400 I got for a good price ex-corporate hooray and happy xmas to me lol)
 

Offline bloodline

  • Master Sock Abuser
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Join Date: Mar 2002
  • Posts: 12113
    • Show only replies by bloodline
    • http://www.troubled-mind.com
Re: Amiga 1200 versus Atari Falcon?
« Reply #55 on: December 28, 2010, 10:20:22 PM »
Quote from: Digiman;602516
I have an interview with one of the chief Arm designers explaining Archimedes CPU really well, if I knew how to split the vid into 3x 10min chunks then I'd upload it to Youtube. Even he first chip finished in 1985 was 25mhz 030/020 performance!

With my 'new' X64 laptop I may even be able to record AVIs from WinUAE with sound too so expect more of my zany obscure games vids on Youtube too! haha

(not new new because new laptops are cock that can't run games newer than 1999 due to pathetic GPUs, mine is just a 2.2 T7400 Inspiron 9400 I got for a good price ex-corporate hooray and happy xmas to me lol)
I would like to see it, zip it and pop it on a file share site like dropbox :) x

Offline Iggy

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Join Date: Aug 2009
  • Posts: 5348
    • Show only replies by Iggy
Re: Amiga 1200 versus Atari Falcon?
« Reply #56 on: December 28, 2010, 10:27:02 PM »
Quote from: bloodline;602520
I would like to see it, zip it and pop it on a file share site like dropbox :) x



Excellent idea. It does sound interesting. ARM is about the only design I feel any great entusiam aboutlately.
"Not making any hard and fast rules means that the moderators can use their good judgment in moderation, and we think the results speak for themselves." - Amiga.org, terms of service

"You, got to stem the evil tide, and keep it on the the inside" - Rogers Waters

"God was never on your side" - Lemmy

Amiga! "Our appeal has become more selective"
 

Offline Swos

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Join Date: Nov 2010
  • Posts: 6
    • Show only replies by Swos
Re: Amiga 1200 versus Atari Falcon?
« Reply #57 on: December 28, 2010, 10:40:17 PM »
What I find really ironic about the whole Amiga v's ST debate was that the Commodore fanboys were sticking up for machine was more or less made by Atari computer while the Atari fanboys were sticking up for the computer that was more or less a Commodore machine!!! :lol:
 

Offline Digiman

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Join Date: May 2010
  • Posts: 1045
    • Show only replies by Digiman
Re: Amiga 1200 versus Atari Falcon?
« Reply #58 on: December 29, 2010, 11:05:11 PM »
Don't think RJ Mical or Dave Needle was anything to do with Atari and Jay owned Amiga Computers (machine was called Lorraine back then) and was only 1/3 of the brains..

Also none of the C64 VIC-II/SID designers had anything to do with the ST. Shiraz Shivji had no major role in the important areas of the C64 design.

The two Atari 68000 based workstation prototypes had no Amiga custom chips, and were started when Warner still owned it.

:)
 

Offline Digiman

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Join Date: May 2010
  • Posts: 1045
    • Show only replies by Digiman
Re: Amiga 1200 versus Atari Falcon?
« Reply #59 on: December 30, 2010, 12:17:24 AM »
Quote from: bloodline;602520
I would like to see it, zip it and pop it on a file share site like dropbox :) x


Virgin media need shooting, my upload speed is about 5-10kbs half the time even if I downloaded nothing all day, and internet is crawling at 512kb broadband speeds if I'm lucky.:roflmao: