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Offline rkauer

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Re: opinion on this VGA box?
« Reply #14 from previous page: November 14, 2007, 05:39:57 PM »
 My opinion for the device?

 I think it's white. :roll:
Goodbye people.

I\'ll pop on from time to time, RL is acting up.
 

Offline Muzungu

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Re: opinion on this VGA box?
« Reply #15 on: February 02, 2008, 06:44:05 AM »
Quote

alexh wrote:
Dont you just love technical responses from non-technical staff who's first language isnt English!

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so the sample rate of 8-bit is applied for most instances

Sample rate, yeah sure ;-)


I just figured they worked for Microsoft.  The answer, while technically accurate, was not at all helpful
 

Offline da9000

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Re: opinion on this VGA box?
« Reply #16 on: February 09, 2008, 01:27:25 AM »
@Muzungu:

Hahahaha. Well, the only distinction that would have made them like Microsoft is if they CHARGED for the useless answer :-D  Fortunately I conducted the Q&A through email for no cost.
 

Offline Muzungu

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Re: opinion on this VGA box?
« Reply #17 on: February 19, 2008, 03:18:21 AM »
Here's my review of the device:

It's small.  It uses a small, 5V power adapter.  It supports RGB and Component (the sync on green type, I think) video.  I cracked it open to check out the chip, but it was hidden behind a glued-on heat sink that I didn't feel like prying off, so that will have to remain a mystery for now.  It uses a 16MB SDRAM chip (W9816G6CH-7) for buffering.  I was not able to locate useful info regarding another chip: MST9883C-LF

I hooked it up to an A500 and an SGI GDM20E21 monitor, which it synced up to right away.  I had to switch the input from Component to RGB since everything looked purple.

After stretching and centering the image, I noticed that the picture seemed rather dull, not as bright as it was on my 1084.  This could be because I stretched out an image that was scanning in a smaller area, and the beam had auto-adjusted for intensity based on the screen mode, but not when I tried to spread the same number of electrons over a larger area.  I might have to try out one of my LCDs on it later, where electron guns are not an issue.  I used SotB as my test game figuring that its touted 50 fps frame rate should give this thing a run for its money.  For a few seconds, I sat there and just punched the air to see if there were any signs of screen lag, but detected none.  Static objects surrounded by black borders on vertical lines exhibit a slight "shimmering" effect, but things in motion seem fairly smooth.  In workbench I detected a slight ghost trail behind the pointer, likely the result of lossy compression.  Interlaced WB 1.2 displayed, but it was horrible to look at, like someone had cut the WB into shreds and then overlapped them.  Slight color separation is noticeable in hard edges, but I had a combined video cable of about 13 feet, so I'm going to get a VGA gender changer to hook directly to my RGB to VGA adapter from amigakit to see if that improves the picture any.  Color separation is not noticeable on complex images, leading me to believe that this device is best designed for JPEG-like images (i.e. photos) as opposed to GIF-like images (i.e. WB screens).  At 60Hz, I looked at the screen out of the corner of my eye, where persistence of vision is much less and detected no flicker.  This is possibly a function of the monitor itself, but I don't have any response time info for this monitor.  I can detect flicker from the corner of my eye in the default screen mode on a 1084.

In summary:

The Good: Fast frame rate, no color loss on OCS games, reasonably sharp picture in complex images

The Bad: No interlace mode support, lossy compression noticeable on WB screens, slight shimmer in VGA mode at black to color boundaries(Although this largely went away in the WXGA mode. I got no sync at all on the SVGA mode.), JPEG-y ghost trail follows moving objects on monochrome backgrounds,color separation on text and similar objects, scrolling text (during the between level segues in SotB) was not as smooth as it could've been, due to separation, ghosting and shimmer.

The Ugly: OK, it actually looks kind of good since it's small and unobtrusive.

Overall, I'm happy with my purchase since it will work just fine for using a 20-inch monitor on my A500 that I plan on turning into an arcade machine for my rec room.  I won't be doing any WB stuff with this machine, where most of the problems I encountered turned up.
 

Offline Unit01

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Re: opinion on this VGA box?
« Reply #18 on: February 19, 2008, 08:48:52 AM »
Hi Muzungu,

Thank you for your detailed review.
 
"Interlaced WB 1.2 displayed, but it was horrible to look at, like someone had cut the WB into shreds and then overlapped them."


Maybe the box doesn't sample or output one of the fields like some tv card software.



John
-----------------------------------------
A500/A590 A2000/GVP A3000 accel CD32/SX1
 

Offline alexh

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Re: opinion on this VGA box?
« Reply #19 on: February 19, 2008, 12:25:00 PM »
Quote

Muzungu wrote:
It uses a 16MB SDRAM chip (W9816G6CH-7) for buffering.

That rules out an Averlogic AL250 as it has the RAM built in.

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Muzungu wrote:
MST9883C-LF

A 9883 chip is a triple 8-bit ADC. (It converts analog RGB to Digital).

Quote

Muzungu wrote:
I used SotB as my test game figuring that its touted 50 fps frame rate [snip]things in motion seem fairly smooth. [Snip] scrolling text (during the between level segues in SotB) was not as smooth as it could've been, due to separation, ghosting and shimmer.

I would recommend a smooth scroll text in a demo to see the effects of the scandoubler on motion.

Does this scandoubler always output 60Hz? If that is the case, the conversion of 50Hz input to 60Hz output will explain why the scrolling was not smooth.

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Muzungu wrote:
In workbench I detected a slight ghost trail behind the pointer, likely the result of lossy compression.

Scandoublers don't compress. If you were in a non-interlaced mode, no idea what it could be.

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Muzungu wrote:
Slight color separation is noticeable in hard edges

I think you'll find this is a side effect of the conversion from analog to digital and back to analog.

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Muzungu wrote:
At 60Hz

Amiga at 60Hz, or scandoubler at 60Hz?
 

Offline Muzungu

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Re: opinion on this VGA box?
« Reply #20 on: February 19, 2008, 03:48:30 PM »
I have an NTSC Amiga, so Amiga at 60Hz and no conversion.  I don't know if it will attempt to do a refresh rate conversion, although I have a PAL A1200 I can try it out with this evening.

The ghosting looks exactly like video compression; my guess is that something funky is going on in the DAC, although this device could possibly be using compression in order to maintain performance by sacrificing video quality.  HP's RGS-based thin client systems use this to maintain frame rate, so it's not out of the question.  

There were a couple of smaller chips in there too that I will attempt to identify.

I re-ran X-out this morning in WXGA mode, and shimmer was no longer noticeable.  I'll try WB and SotB again this evening in that mode.

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alexh wrote:
I think you'll find this is a side effect of the conversion from analog to digital and back to analog.


Probably.  Although I've seen the same effect on VGA when stretched over a 75 foot multi-coax cable.  Going from an adapter to a cable to a converter to a cable could be messing with color synchronization.

 

Offline Muzungu

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Re: opinion on this VGA box?
« Reply #21 on: February 19, 2008, 04:49:46 PM »
More chip info:

SM8958A SyncMOS micro controller

SPV311A-PL171 DigiShow (This is the chip that had the heat sink stuck to it.  It wasn't that hard to remove.)it appears to be an HDTV processor.  Interesting too that it appears to be rather obsolete.  
 

Offline tekopaa

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Re: opinion on this VGA box?
« Reply #22 on: February 19, 2008, 09:57:04 PM »
http://www.superfi.co.uk/index.cfm/page/moreinfo.cfm/Product_ID/1614

does this work

if i change the scart to 23pin amigaRGB

or female scart and use amiga scart rgb cable
 

Offline alexh

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Re: opinion on this VGA box?
« Reply #23 on: February 19, 2008, 11:48:48 PM »
Quote

Muzungu wrote:
The ghosting looks exactly like video compression; my guess is that something funky is going on in the DAC, although this device could possibly be using compression in order to maintain performance by sacrificing video quality.

No scandoubler uses compression. Why would it? The only reason would be to save RAM or bandwidth. Both of which in the case of a scandoubler are MUCH MUCH cheaper than video compression/decompression hardware.

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Muzungu wrote:
It uses a 16MB SDRAM chip (W9816G6CH-7) for buffering.

A scandoubler requires approximately 3 lines of 24-bit video, 720*24*3 = 0.42Mbytes. Flicker fixer needs much more 720*576*24*3 = 3.56Mbytes. Both are well below the 16Mbytes in this scandoubler. That chip is 16-bit and has a max effective clock rate of 100MHz = 200Mbyte/sec.

This system has more than enough memory and more than enough bandwidth not to need to compress video.

Quote

Muzungu wrote:
HP's RGS-based thin client systems use this to maintain frame rate, so it's not out of the question.

Yes it is out of the question. The system you describe uses a medium which is neither dedicated, nor high bandwidth. A scandoubler doesnt suffer from such constraints. It has it's own dedicated RAM interface which can run at full video speed!
 

Offline Muzungu

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Re: opinion on this VGA box?
« Reply #24 on: February 20, 2008, 04:25:06 PM »
After digging more into it, it seems that the ghosting is due to the Comb Filter and 3D Motion Adaptive Deinterlacing and Noise Reduction algorithms the device uses.  Since these use interpolation as one means of filling in missing data, it gives rise to the compressed video look that trails a moving pointer across a textureless background.  These algorithms are most likely catered to approximate textured backrounds.