Vernacular forms of language

[motorollin]

According to a socio-linguistics book I'm reading, standard forms of English are associated with a "higher" class of people who are richer, more successful and better educated, while vernacular forms are associated with "lower" classes. I find this quite hard to accept, not only because of my own Essex accent, but also because I think it's extremely unfair to judge someone on the basis of their accent and/or dialect.

So I'm really interested to hear opinions on this. From those who speak with a "standard" form (for English speakers that would be standard English dialect with an RP accent (or "BBC" English), for non English speakers it would be whatever is considered standard in your country) I would be interested to hear your opinion of people who use vernacular (non-standard) forms. Do you think of them as "lower" class? Less educated? Less wealthy? Less professional?

For those who speak with a regional dialect, or any vernacular form which is non-standard, what is your opinion of people who speak using "standard" forms? Do you consider them to be of "higher" class? Better educated? More wealthy? More professional?

Also, if you were to go see a professional, e.g. a doctor, lawyer etc, how would you feel if they used vernacular forms of language? Or if they didn't (if they used an extremely standard form)? Would you be more or less likely to trust their professional ability in each case?

Personally I do feel a bit looked down on by RP speakers, but generally react to this by exaggerating my vernacular usage (the "screw you effect" :-)) If I were to visit a doctor, I couldn't care less which accent he/she used. In fact, I might even feel more at ease with somebody who used vernacular forms, as long as he/she used technical terms accurately and where appropriate.

Discuss! :-D

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moto

[bloodline]

I speak with an RP accent* (see voices of a.org), and I must confess that I do immediately assume people who speak in the vernacular as less intellegent, but it doesn't take long for that illusion to be dispelled after speaking with someone if they are actually very bright!

If I hear a girl speaking with a german accent, I find it very sexy... I don't know if that relevant to this disscusion. :-)

*my accent is a bit of a mess now, living in London for 8 years has push me into what commonly known as estery, that coupled with living with a Canadian girl friend for 6 years has added a slight north American twinge to it.

[Oliver]

bloodline wrote:
If I hear a girl speaking with a German accent, I find it very sexy... I don't know if that relevant to this discussion. :-)

Accents rock. BTW, sex appeal is always relevant to any discussion.

Moto, that book sounds like it was written by my mother. I think this type of concept is a hang-over from a very classist history. I think these classes are breaking down now, but I think the basis in history is quite real. I think modes of speech relate more to education and cultural background than intelligence.

In Australia, some professions are really 'old boys' clubs, and I think part of their attempts to maintain their professional standards includes modes of speech. This is changing though.

In my engineering profession, it tends to go the opposite direction. One of my lecturers told me it was important to add extra swear words when talking to contractors, to break down the perceived class barriers. I was brought up with standard, academic English, so I've taught myself to be less stuffy most of the time.

I don't think use of vernacular English is a predictor of low intelligence. I think this is more related to upbringing than intelligence. However, I think intelligent people will be more perceptive, and learn skills of articulation regardless of communication style. If people are not intelligent, I think they will tend to speak in a more limited set of utterances, and have difficulty in communicating complex ideas.

In USA, African American street lingo has been recognised as a dialect, which seems appropriate to me. However, the dialect has been given equal standing with standard English in some universities. This seems inappropriate to me, for the reason that the street dialect is limited in grammatical complexity, and doesn't allow for the same level of articulation of complex ideas. Of course the dialect has eloquence in it's own way, but I don't believe it would be sufficient for an in depth dicourse on metaphysics, for example.

In Australia, middle English seems to be disappearing. TV is becoming more and more colloquial, and people who used to speak middle English on TV are now frequently using grammatical errors, which I think is probably deliberate. I have noticed this being copied by most people I talk to. I think this is quite interesting in itself. Some examples: 'are' is being replaced with 'is'; 'I am well' is being replaced with 'I am good'; adverbs are being replaced with adjectives.

Commercial speech is also beginning changes to Australian English: verb forms of words are being used in place of noun forms, such as 'I have an invite to a party'; verbs are being misused, such as 'action something' meaning 'do something', or 'transition something' meaning 'change something'. I think this is just people trying to sound clever, or fashionable, as though to attain the level of class destinction you discussed.

Oliver

[da9000]

Interesting...

All I know is that I could never understand a word from Ozzy Osbourne when he spoke on interviews/videos!!!!! :-D (I'm of the North American accent category)

[motorollin]

@bloodline
I couldn't hear any Estuary features in your VOAO clip - it sounded pretty RP to me. So if you went to see a doctor who was using, say, a broad Yorkshire accent, would you assume that he was educated to a certain level (otherwise he would, presumably, not be practising), or would you be sceptical of his abilities until he had proved otherwise? Would an RP speaking doctor elicit the same reaction?

@Oliver
Some interesting points made, especially the part about people who consider themselves to be of higher class (or want to be seen that way) actively using standard language forms in order to reinforce their status. I on the other hand do the opposite, but then I'm truculent and recalcitrant in so many ways :lol:

Regarding language change you are seeing in Aus and America, it is common for language to change more rapidly in countries which have been speaking that language for a (relatively) short time, which is why Australian and American Englishes are so radically different from British English. I think the media and easier/cheaper travel are responsible for importing many of those changes back in to Britain. Before long we'll all be speaking one form of English across the entire planet. It will be called "beige English".

@da9000
Your inability to understand Ozzy Osbourne is nothing to do with your N American origin. *We* can't understand him - even his fellow brummies probably have a hard time knowing what he's on about :lol:

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moto

[bloodline]

My accent on Voices is the one I grew up with, but in every day usage I speak a bit differently! Often slipping back to RP when I'm drunk! Obviously when meeting a Doctor, there is an expectation of education, my mind overules my instincts. But if I meet the person outside of a professional context it would be a few min before I would actually know! The reverse is also true, If I hear an RP accent I assume the person is arrogant, I guess these expectations come from experience! Probably why I've softened my accent!

[Speelgoedmannetje]

I have really no idea about my accent. I've got no accent ;-) :-P

[uncharted]

@Moto

I'm a "what you see is what you get" kinda guy, I never really paid much attention to my Essex (very strong Saffend) accent until I started working in Cambridge.  There have been occasions recently where I have been conscious of how I speak.

There is an odd twist to this.  While I speak (according to the 'standard' anyway) relatively poor english, I tend to look down on people who use 'chav speak' as if I was the bastion of good diction.  In fact while I'd be mortified if someone were to judge my intelligence based upon how I talk, I personally think of people who talk in that way as being 'thick'.  

What would life be like without a little hypocrisy to spice things up? ;-)

[motorollin]

uncharted wrote:
What would life be like without a little hypocrisy to spice things up? ;-)

It's a double standard. I have them too. I can live with it ;-)

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moto

[KThunder]

its amazing how peoples perceptions can be influenced by accent. if someone can fake a decent accent they can add iq points or the coolness factor in second.

i have the normal "north american" accent with a slight southern bit due to numerous friends and family from the south. if i think about it i can turn that off though.

[adz]

With such cultural diversity here in Melbourne, we get such a variety of Englishes. I think I have the hardest time accepting "Bogan" speak, it just sounds so wrong. I don't care what qualifications a person has, if I see doctor and he comes out with something like "Gidday cobber, wats da matter wif ya?", I won't be sticking around.


Edit...Speaking of VOAO, I haven't had any more participants in a while :-(

[da9000]

motorollin wrote:
@da9000
Your inability to understand Ozzy Osbourne is nothing to do with your N American origin. *We* can't understand him - even his fellow brummies probably have a hard time knowing what he's on about :lol:

 :laughing:

I figured that much, but wasn't ever really sure until heard it from one of his compatriots! :-)


Coolest thing about accents is of course what happens to chicks when they hear you speak (and how you then take advantage of the fact, harharhar). Ah, good memories!

[Turambar]

It depends, i'm from a "working class" background and I speak with fairly strong Glaswegian accent but it's not anything closely resembling your glasgow ned's accent which is invariably put on and is an attempt to make the speaker sound as decrepit and/or out their box as possible. I do tend to look down on people that speak like that though and the surprising thing is it is totally unrelated to upper or lower classes as many teenagers from far more affluent areas than the one i live in speak this way as well, they didn't speak like this as children but have affected this accent to better match their tracksuits,

I'm gonna stop because i'm not sure i'm making sense, i'll try and clarify if there are any questions.

[Oliver]

Turambar wrote:
I'm gonna stop because i'm not sure i'm making sense, i'll try and clarify if there are any questions.

Makes sense to me.

I assume it's similar to the bad boy street kid want-to-be's in Perth.

They wear the most expensive clothing any youth can put on, and just sit around in a central city mall, smoking, and mouthing off. They act so tough. Unfortunately, some of them really try too hard to be bad, and end up doing some really regretable things.

I think most of those kids have never had to deal with really bad types. It's just signing on for the cool image.

[da9000]

I hear you. Lets all thank eM-T-V and American pop-culture for that "fad". I can't wait for it to be over. Until then I'll be happy to see their asses getting kicked by the real bad guys (only time I'm on the bad guys' side)! Get some attitude adjustment in them real quick!