A PPC native OS ?

[xaccrocheur]

I'm trying to remember the early MacOS 68k=>PPC portage...

I remember that it took nearly forever even for them big guys to port their bloated code to PPC, discovering thet they had lost control over most of the core code, and that it needed "from scratch" rewriting. Did it take 2 years ? I seem to remember so.

I also remember that the 1st implementaions were SLOWER than 68k counterparts, some code taking longer to perform on a
604@180 than on a 040@40 machine...

It had a "68k_emu" folder in the system, did it emulate SYSTEM code, or only application ?

And finally, even if I did not dare to even think about it until now, I'm actually wondering if OS4 will eventually be released.

Where can I get some sort of "hands-on" timetable ? What is done, what is not ? I only got sales-ppl-style updated news (A. Redhouse's intw) but no techie insight.

I admit that those guys need to be left alone and WORK, but this morning, I dunno, I find meself suddenly CRAVING for information...

pX :roll:

[Karlos]

That's becaouse of

1) They had an absolutely awful interpretive 68K emulation that was black box based - all 68K code flowed throug the same instance of the interpreter

2) Within that emulation they had to factor in older 68000 code that used 24-bit addressing (ewww)

3) Their pre OS X systems wasn't exactly quick anyway. They realised how poor it was finally and jumped to bsd :-)

4) Large portions of the system code used fat binaries such that 68K stuff could run the same files as PPC. An upshot of this was that some of the critical emulated code was relying on emulated system calls too

This is much less of a problem for AmigaOS 4 because

1) It uses a JIT 68K emulation rather than interpretation

2) The emulation is thread based, so each 68K process has its own 'emulation' running

3) Much has been learned in recent years of how to achieve effective emulation

4) The OS is efficient

5) The starting PPC spec is quite a lot higher :-D

-edit-

According to the OS4 technical brief, the 68K emulation can outperform a 68060 in some cases even on a 603e 160MHz...

I guess we'll have to wait and see...

[xaccrocheur]

How did I knew Karlos was going to answer that one ? 8-)

This is all much much clearer now.

I was suddenly very concerned, remembering the day we received our 1st PowerMac @ my work of that time, and realizing how sluggish it was compared to the trusty Quad600@66Mzh I had on my desk @ that time. Being an Amiga Maniac already, I remember vividly thinking at that time "this is gonna be HELL and AGES for the little team that WILL finally decide to port my beloved OS to *this* platform.

On the other hand the said machines became quite rapidly stable and usable, even if the OS never got off in terms of speed.

I found no relevant documentation about this particular project (MacOS 2 PPC) and again less about AOS. An interesting data, even considering the very relevant differences you pointed in your post, would be the number of man-years needed, compared to the 25 Alan told us about AOS, witch is, correct me if I'm wrong not out yet ;-)

Where the heck can I read more about that ? Closed-source sometimes really sux

pX

[ikir]

Karlos is very efficient!
Thx :-)

[Karlos]

Hmm, starting to get a funny reputation round here!

Nobody ever accused me of being efficient before! Many things, but not efficient :lol:

[tonyw]

I seem to remember from the time that the early PPC versions also had a lot of debugging code that was taken out in later revisions, with good effect.

BTW, the Frieden Brothers are active and optimistic on the developer mailing lists. Everyone else is optimistic, too.

tony

[Karlos]

xaccrocheur wrote:

I found no relevant documentation about this particular project (MacOS 2 PPC) and again less about AOS. An interesting data, even considering the very relevant differences you pointed in your post, would be the number of man-years needed, compared to the 25 Alan told us about AOS, witch is, correct me if I'm wrong not out yet ;-)

Where the heck can I read more about that ? Closed-source sometimes really sux

pX

Well, I actually registered as a developer for mac ages ago when I was first experimenting with cross platform coding (back when 68K macs were still the most popular user base but PPC was out). You got some insight from the developer info...

As for the OS4 stuff I mentioned, that's straight out of Hyperions technical brief they released in pdf form a few weeks/month back.

In my estimation, the biggest drag was rewriting exec and all of the ROM based resources, which were coded in asm and have BCPL pointer stuff kicking around for good measure. Not nice.

Porting the asm to C and testing, whilst not conceptually difficult, especially for coders with the experience that Hyperion's have, is still a big time drain.

Next up would be the new kernel features and integration into the existing architecture. Especially the JIT emulator.

The source for the x86 based JIT from WinUAE is available but obviously you need to re code the back end to emit PPC opcodes.

Also, given the GPL nature of that code, I guess Hyperion had to write their own from scratch.

As ans aside, I recall the WarpOS authors had a 68K emulation for WarpOS 5, but I never heard anything about it after their initial claimes that they got an emulated workbecnch 3.5 to boot up...

[Helgis75]

AmigaOS 4 is the TRUE PPC-native OS for the AmigaOne! I would go for this one:-) Don't worry, it shouldn't take too long before OS4 comes out. Just give it some time. It's soon there. Don't worry.

Be happy! Sing a song! Here we go.. :-)  :-)  :-)  :-D  8-)

[Karlos]

Helgis75 wrote:
Be happy! Sing a song! Here we go.. :-)  :-)  :-)  :-D  8-)

If amiga.org ever starts an annual award ceremony, I'd like to nominate Helgis for his undying faith in AmigaOne/OS4... :-)

[Matt_H]

THAT's what we need! A theme song! Think about it: Every system event could play different jingles from the main tune!

How many other OSes have theme songs?  :-D

[olegil]

Well, Windows 95 had "Start me up", by Rolling Stones. "You make a grown man cry" etc.
 :-P

[Atheist]

w98se makes ME cry.   :-(

It has that little "intel inside" and something else chime in every time I boot up.

Ick!!

AmigaOne! Music to my ears, in IFF please!

I admit that those guys need to be left alone and WORK, but this morning, I dunno, I find meself suddenly CRAVING for information...

-----------

This morning? How interesting you mentioned that. Did you know that anxienty levels are at it's top in the morning. Did you know that that would influence the way you see things and the thoughts you think in that moment. I have experienced that myself.

If you want people to listen to what you say you can't let your emotions control you like that.

You also mention that you fear that there will be no OS4.0, that seems to make sense given this new perspective.

[that_punk_guy]

THAT's what we need! A theme song! Think about it: Every system event could play different jingles from the main tune!

I just had a nasty Annex flashback...

THAT's what we need! A theme song!

The most apropos theme I can think of is "Thus Spake Zarathrustra."  Although not really lending itself to system sounds, the last few bars would make a great startup sound.  AmigaOS has truly been an Odyssey.

MikeS