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Offline Speelgoedmannetje

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Re: Damn kids these days...
« Reply #14 on: March 23, 2005, 08:29:55 PM »
Quote

whabang wrote:
Oh, don't get me wrong. I am most certainly pro-gun control, but blaming this on the guns is rediculous.
blaming on guns????????????????
Get real! one really doesn't blame things!
It's about weapon/gun culture!
And the canary said: \'chirp\'
 

Offline Cymric

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Re: Damn kids these days...
« Reply #15 on: March 23, 2005, 09:54:39 PM »
@fade:

Correct. Point in case: gun is close at hand, and ready to be used. A gunman can take out a lot of other people before he himself is incapacitated---read: killed---quite a 'bonus', if a morbid one. It takes some skill and testing to build something on your own, something most wannabe killers lack. They prefer to spend their time uttering vague threats or hanging out with their peers. Plus it makes discovery more likely, as you spend more time in preparation.

In other words, your argument fails to convince me and a whole lot of other people, until we hear of a high school massacre where the killer used home-made weapons or something other than guns, like fragmentation grenades or mines in combination with fire or tear gas. Therefore: while people kill other people, and there is no stopping them if they are crazy and persistent enough, forbidding civillians to own a gun is a major first step in preventing this sort of thing.

The scary thing is that your society accepts these tragic casualties in exchange for the right to carry arms and, to an outsider, look utterly moronic, naive, and stupid with them. It's all about priorities, I guess.
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Offline Dan

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Re: Damn kids these days...
« Reply #16 on: March 23, 2005, 11:43:01 PM »
@fade
Homemade guns?
Not anybody who has a life.
As for the hardwarestore it´s already full of off-the-shelf murderweapons. And besides arson is so much more convenient. And explosives are cooler and more exciting.
Apple did it right the first time, bring back the Newton!
 

Offline Dan

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Re: Damn kids these days...
« Reply #17 on: March 23, 2005, 11:44:46 PM »
gunlobby mode on
All kids should be allowed to carry guns in school, then things like this couldn´t happen.
gunlobby mode off
Apple did it right the first time, bring back the Newton!
 

Offline Dan

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Re: Damn kids these days...
« Reply #18 on: March 23, 2005, 11:51:03 PM »
But really an Indian nazi??? I mean this kid was really disturbed.
Apple did it right the first time, bring back the Newton!
 

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Re: Damn kids these days...
« Reply #19 on: March 24, 2005, 12:15:13 AM »
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mdma were you raised in a vacuum? Teenage boys have been building homemade guns for a hundred years.


WTF!?!?

Not in this country matey, then again we don't have a gun fetish ingrained into the national psyche.

-edit

Raised in a vacuum? Hardly.  Raised in an extremly rough working class northern town, where violent behaviour was considered "normal".

Our "Hard Men" fight with their fists.
 

Offline Fade

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Re: Damn kids these days...
« Reply #20 on: March 24, 2005, 06:39:07 AM »
@ Cymric
"The scary thing is that your society accepts these tragic casualties in exchange for the right to carry arms and, to an outsider, look utterly moronic, naive, and stupid with them."
-----------------

To an outsider from this side of the pond it looks that you have only disarmed the honest people in the UK.

Gun amnesty

Quote
But shadow home affairs minister James Paice said the amnesty had "failed to address the real problem".

 He said: "Nearly all gun crime involves illegally-held handguns, not legally-owned shotguns or rifles.

 "The real problem is that illegal firearms are flooding into Britain because the government cannot secure our borders."

If you will check, I'm pretty sure that violent crime has increased in the UK, not decreased, since your gov. outlawed gun ownership. Same for Australia.
If you\\\'re still voting Democrat, you\\\'re stuck on stupid!
 

Offline Damion

Re: Damn kids these days...
« Reply #21 on: March 24, 2005, 10:46:24 AM »
Quote

Our "Hard Men" fight with their fists.


Dude, I totally agree you'd have to be sick in the head to solve problems with guns, no one here is advocating that...but I still can't comprehend how forcing Jimmy Smith legal gun enthusiast to give up his hobby is going to prevent a criminal from killing/robbing with an illegally obtained firearm, especially when the statisitcs say thaaaaat's who is committing the (gun related) crimes.

Quote

The scary thing is that your society accepts these tragic casualties in exchange for the right to carry arms and, to an outsider, look utterly moronic, naive, and stupid with them.


That's simply not the case. You're viewing "the weapon" as the root cause of these types of incidents, whereas I have to ask WTF is wrong with the parents of these children (and the the school officials) for not recognizing and preventing these tragedies beforehand. Nobody here is wearing gun ownership as some sick badge of honor "in spite" of what happened, that's absolutely beyond ludicrous. In this situation, the gun, and the psychological deficit, are really separate considerations.

(BTW -- There are several notable incidents where mentally derranged individuals used intruments other than firearms to injure/kill people, so I don't see how "but what if there was no gun" is a valid argument.)

As far as "looking" moronic, I'm willing to bet many would consider toying around with old amigas equally naive and ridiculous, everyone should be entitled to their hobby of choice so long as it doesn't infringe upon the welfare and safety of others. And the interesting thing is, as many gun conventions as I've been to, there are usually far more Australians, Europeans, and South Africans present than Americans...which is kinda funny considering what some of you are saying.

As I see it, legislating away legal firearms ownership would be the exact same as a group of goose-stepping "state officials" deciding that squares and circles should be contraband, simply becasue "they" don't prefer them...therefore nobody else has any legitimate use for them either. It's entirely wacky, in a Stalinist-era Russia way...and doesn't make any sense.

 

Offline Cymric

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Re: Damn kids these days...
« Reply #22 on: March 24, 2005, 12:34:06 PM »
Quote
-D- wrote:
Dude, I totally agree you'd have to be sick in the head to solve problems with guns, no one here is advocating that...but I still can't comprehend how forcing Jimmy Smith legal gun enthusiast to give up his hobby is going to prevent a criminal from killing/robbing with an illegally obtained firearm, especially when the statisitcs say thaaaaat's who is committing the (gun related) crimes.

And of course the fact that there are millions of legal weapons has nooooooooooo influence on the presence of illegal arms at alllllllll. Be serious. As I said, people kill people, and if you are crazy enough in the head you will get your gun. It does make it a lot more difficult, and that is what I am after.

Quote
Quote
The scary thing is that your society accepts these tragic casualties in exchange for the right to carry arms and, to an outsider, look utterly moronic, naive, and stupid with them.

That's simply not the case. You're viewing "the weapon" as the root cause of these types of incidents, whereas I have to ask WTF is wrong with the parents of these children (and the the school officials) for not recognizing and preventing these tragedies beforehand. Nobody here is wearing gun ownership as some sick badge of honor "in spite" of what happened, that's absolutely beyond ludicrous. In this situation, the gun, and the psychological deficit, are really separate considerations.

Thank you for proving my point: looking utterly stupid and moronic to the outsider. You continue to see it as two separate problems simply because that is the background you grew up in. You have learned to live with it, and that is the scary bit. Understandably, you of course want to solve the problem by 'recognizing and preventing these tragedies beforehand', but outlawing guns for civillians does not make it to the options list. Gun ownership is far from normal over here where I live, and if you have a permit to own a gun, you can rest assured our national security agency did a very thorough background check on you. Gun clubs are routinely checked for members with Bad Ideas, much to the chagrin of the 'normal' members. My society makes a point of showing that owning a gun is not normal and viewed upon with suspicion.

I want to stress the fact that had I grown up in the US, my view would very likely have been different; mellowed at the very least.

Quote
(BTW -- There are several notable incidents where mentally derranged individuals used intruments other than firearms to injure/kill people, so I don't see how "but what if there was no gun" is a valid argument.)

However morbid, imagine you want to repeat what happened. You have the choice of a) a semi-automatic rifle; b) a revolver; c) lots of loose electrical things and household chemicals with perhaps a few kilos you stole from school plus a lot of wood and metal; d) incendiaries; e) a large truck; f) knives and other stabbing weapons. Add other means if you see fit, this list is by no means exhaustive. In my opinion, options a) and b) are by far the easiest: they are readily obtainable, have a high 'success' ratio and do not require much planning to put into action. f) is even easier, but is very messy, and is likely to get you captured. A mob can overcome a knife-carrying lunatic, they are likely to be dead when faced with a gun-carrying one. I am not saying it is easy to disarm someone with a knife, and if that person is trained, you are likely to sustain severe, if not mortal injuries. But your chances of survival are so much better it hurts.

Quote
As far as "looking" moronic, I'm willing to bet many would consider toying around with old amigas equally naive and ridiculous, everyone should be entitled to their hobby of choice so long as it doesn't infringe upon the welfare and safety of others. And the interesting thing is, as many gun conventions as I've been to, there are usually far more Australians, Europeans, and South Africans present than Americans...which is kinda funny considering what some of you are saying.

Puh-lease. Noone is comparing guns to Amigas, that is a conclusion of your own invention. And perhaps the reason there are so much non-Americans is because in other countries there are very little gun conventions, so they have to go elsewhere---and since there are so many shops and conventions in the US, people don't need to go to a convention in the first place. I will retract my statement if proven wrong by data, but for now, I consider yours to be quite shaky.

Quote
As I see it, legislating away legal firearms ownership would be the exact same as a group of goose-stepping "state officials" deciding that squares and circles should be contraband, simply becasue "they" don't prefer them...therefore nobody else has any legitimate use for them either. It's entirely wacky, in a Stalinist-era Russia way...and doesn't make any sense.

You see? You are so familiar with guns you can't even think about abandoning them for reasons other than 'they want to make us'. That is precisely the bit that scares me. Guns serve no useful purpose except to injure or kill, whether in defense or attack. People do not carry guns to illustrate the principles of supersonic flight, the behaviour of metals under moderately extreme conditions, or the equivalence in human or animal anatomy.

Let me put it this way: you say you have been to several conventions, and I trust that means that you own firearms. Why do you have them, and why should I trust you not to do anything funny with them?
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Offline PMC

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Re: Damn kids these days...
« Reply #23 on: March 24, 2005, 02:41:59 PM »
Quote

Fade wrote:
But shadow home affairs minister James Paice said the amnesty had "failed to address the real problem".

 He said: "Nearly all gun crime involves illegally-held handguns, not legally-owned shotguns or rifles.

 "The real problem is that illegal firearms are flooding into Britain because the government cannot secure our borders."

If you will check, I'm pretty sure that violent crime has increased in the UK, not decreased, since your gov. outlawed gun ownership. Same for Australia.


Fade,

You have made an excellent and very valid point IMHO.  Although gun controls in this country have made ti more difficult to obtain handguns, there's no point in locking the gate if there's a gaping hole in the fence...

Yes, violent crime in the UK has increased but this is due to the Police being seemingly more preoccupied with speeding motorists than armed gangs.  However, I believe we need to hike the jail terms for gun crime as a deterrant.  

Although I'm very pro-gun control I do have a friend who is a keen marksman and who is very angry with what he sees as kneejerk politics in this country in response to a one off event meaning even stricter gun control.
Cecilia for President
 

Offline metalman

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Re: Damn kids these days...
« Reply #24 on: March 25, 2005, 01:35:40 AM »
Quote

PMC wrote:

What drives a fourteen year old to go to school and execute eight people before turning the gun on himself?  Surely we should be looking at what it is in our society that drives people commit mass murder.  It's happened it places like Dunblaine, Hungerford (in the UK) etc so it's not necessarily a phenomena experienced in nations where gun control is limited.



The clues were all there'
School shooter depicted as deeply disturbed, ignored teen


a deeply disturbed youth who had been treated for depression and suicidal tendencies in a psychiatric ward, taking the antidepressant Prozac

He was estranged from many family members,
had a strained relationship with his paternal grandfather he killed at the start of Monday's rampage.
His father committed suicide in 1997.
maternal grandfather died  
automobile accident killed a cousin and left Weise's mother partly paralyzed and brain damaged.
Hated his mother
 

sketched gruesome scenes of armed warriors

had been removed from the school where he gunned down most of his victims Monday.
Lan astaslem
The Peacemaker
 

Offline whabang

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Re: Damn kids these days...
« Reply #25 on: March 25, 2005, 08:02:40 AM »
Quote

Dan wrote:
But really an Indian nazi??? I mean this kid was really disturbed.

Not really. He's probably more aryan than Hitler ever was. :-)
Beating the dead horse since 2002.
 

Offline X-ray

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Re: Damn kids these days...
« Reply #26 on: March 25, 2005, 12:51:26 PM »
@ Cymric

There are many things that, to an outsider, may seem moronic.  ;-)

The other thing you should do is check where your country stands in the international arena as regards the victimisation rates per 100 people. I hate to tell you this, but the processed data from the 1996 and 2000 sweeps of the International Crime Victimisation Survey show that the Netherlands has a higher crime rate than the USA (when looking at a range of crimes) and is ranked only 2 places lower than the USA for very serious crimes (England is number 1, Australia number 2, USA is 3rd, Sweden is 4th and the Netherlands is 5th). You may also want to check the number of homicides per 100,000 in Amsterdam compared to any city in the USA you like. I think people often fall into the trap of looking only at crime totals, but ignoring the percentage crime relative to the population. This may result in confusion and the erroneous assumption that one speaks from a more righteous or moral platform than is actually the case. (In case you are wondering, the relevant statistics are available from the Dutch Ministry of Justice or if you want something instantly digestible you can get tables from the University of Leiden. This a well-known survey involving the ministries of many countries including the Netherlands.

Crime is universal. If that wasn't the case and if crime wasn't a threat to the safety of the population then the world's police forces would not need to be armed. The same applies to the general nature of us humans. We fight, we squabble, we do each other in, and that is why we often have things like armies and weapons to threaten one another (and occasionally use against each other too). This has always been the case and I am afraid it is likely to continue to be the case. Now if I could press a magic button and instantaneously vaporise every weapon and every utensil not designed as a weapon, but nevertheless capable of being a weapon, I would do it gladly. And for about an hour or two we would all be equal and the law-abiding righteous citizens would be on an equal footing with any kind of criminal you care to specify. But I fear it wouldn't be very long before somebody realised that if he ripped up a fence post he could use that as a weapon to threaten somebody for money or indeed to do him in. There will always be weapons and there will always be one human who wants to have an advantage over another for purely nefarious reasons.

Now, as for the gun debate...we agree on one thing...the kid at the school should not have had access to the particular firearm he used to kill those people. We could debate whether he would have subsequently used another kind of weapon to kill somebody, and we could also debate how many people he could have killed if he had a different weapon that was not as efficient a killing tool as the gun. However there are a few things we need to consider:

1) There are only three classes of illegal firearm deaths: homicide, negligence ('accidental') and defective (accidental). The incidence of accidents whereby the root cause is a genuinely defective weapon is almost miniscule in the toatal number of deaths by firearms. One could argue that the owner should make every effort to study the recalls and warnings literature for his particular firearm, but I will acknowledge that there must be a few incidents every year where a firearm is defective and causes the death of an individual by accident even if there is nothing wrong with all other items of the same batch. Like every other tool in existence, such as hair-dryers, microwave ovens or any other kind of tool or implement accidents will happen that are not the fault of the user but are a manufacturing fault. It is not reasonable to sweep all those tools into the bin as a precautionary measure to prevent a possible death by genuine accident, especially when regarding firearms and the very low incidence of genuine accidents due to defective equipment. But other events that are called 'accidents' such as a dropped gun, or an incident while cleaning a gun are acts of negligence and are not true accidents.

2) That leaves us with only two ways that a firearm can be involved in an illegal death and both of these are user-precipitated. One is negligence (mentioned above) and the other is criminal. In both instances the shooter should not have had access to the firearm. In the first scenario he is not competent to have a firearm and in the second case it is not appropriate for him to have a firearm (even if he is competent).

Unfortunately for us the majority of firearms deaths are due to criminal activity where the intent is to use the firearm to gain an advantage over another person for nefarious reasons. There are more of these incidents than the type of mass-killing that took place at the school. Of course a mass-killing by a deranged individual is news-worthy and individual cases are not as news-worthy.
You could argue that if there were no firearms legally available, then no firearms could be acquired illegally, but then I could argue that if my aunt had balls she would be my uncle. There will always be firearms used by police and for military reasons (even if you look at only sidearms). Furthermore even if all production of firearms ceased world-wide today, there are sufficient quantities of firearms in existence for a genuine criminal to get hold of. Banning doesn't help: we all know the situation in England where gun crime has soared since the ban. Only the law-abiding citizens have been disarmed and the criminals have continued to import their firearms.

I agree that prospective gun owners should undergo thorough background checks, and physical competency checks and possibly psychometric testing too. I don't mind having gun registration although I know others are against this. In the case of the kid who shot the people at the school, I believe that the firearm owner should be charged over those deaths because I see negligence on his part that resulted in his firearm falling into the wrong hands. Of course the kid was criminal in his actions and the behavioral patterns that lead to his homicidal actions are of grave concern and that needs to be looked at more carefully. Whether it is a Chav shooting a toddler dead in Scotland with an air-rifle or a maniac stabbing 5 or 6 different people in London, the problem is with that person's mindset. As many have already said here, it is not enough to have access to a weapon: you have to want to kill somebody before you use it. If that wasn't the case, I would have killed several people by now because I have two firearms. You can look at me with suspicion because I have those guns, but I stopped a man from stabbing me and several other people simply because I happened to have one of those pistols on me when I was walking out of a shop one day with my groceries.
Having said that, I am against people having guns because it is 'cool' or a fashion statement or any other reason besides protection or sport, or a necessary item as part of one's job. On paper it is evident that I don't need to be armed here in London (and I am not: my guns are locked away in SA) but I sometimes wish I was. One such occasion that sticks in my mind is the incident last year where two chaps on a motorcycle shot two people outside the hospital and all I could do was watch them riding merrily away. Would it have been useful if I was armed that day? Definitely. Would it have been useful if a random selection of bystanders on the pavement were armed that day? I don't know. Maybe none of them meets the requirements of a responsible gun owner. Maybe one of them does.
What is clear is that the shooters that day were not bound by any law or sense of morality, and are free to enjoy the fruits of their ciminal activities. They have guns and I have guns, but that does not equate us.
 

Offline Damion

Re: Damn kids these days...
« Reply #27 on: March 26, 2005, 09:30:41 AM »
@Cymric

Very excellent points, and I agree that our differing opinions have largely been shaped by different environments (which I will touch on in a bit).

I believe both you and X-ray have nicely articulated all facets of this discussion far better than I could, and at the risk of repeating myself ad nauseum, I will leave my main argument by stating that its premise rests upon my belief that objects "in themselves" do not fundamentally contain traits such as "dangerous" or "safe". Though it would be silly to deny the links between objects and how humans interpret and utilize them, from my standpoint they are not sufficient to justify the regulation of firearms in the USA as per a country such as Britain, given what can be drawn from the statistics.

To address your direct questions:

Quote

Let me put it this way: you say you have been to several conventions, and I trust that means that you own firearms. Why do you have them, and why should I trust you not to do anything funny with them?


OK, I'll start with a little background. I was raised around the topic of firearms, and from a very young age was taught to operate them safely and responsibly long before my first round was fired, well prior to having held or even seen one in person. That said, I don't personally have guns in my possession anymore, have no real use for them, and don't fancy them as a serious hobby (although I will inevitably inherit a few of the family "jewels" at some point). I would describe both my knowledge and interest in firearms as "average".

The best conventions I attented were by far those hosted by the Safari Club organization, where in one sitting I had the opportunity to meet individuals from all around the globe, on the whole I would say these ladies and gents were easily as intelligent, knowledgeable and enthusiastic about their hobby/profession as you would find at any computer convention of similar size and scope. The stereotype of the "backwoods", "trigger happy" rifle slinger couldn't be further from the truth when it comes to these guys. (Plus, as much as I will never hunt for sport, no honest man could balk at the site of an attractive woman in a tight-fitting leapord skin top and shorts.)
 
As to why people would want to own them, well there is an acquired skill involved in their efficient use and handling, an artform present in their construction which brings to some a certain "sense" appeal, the same as others may appreciate Schubert's Klaviersonaten, a fine wine...vintage SL roadsters or (for me) a Ducati 996. That is where my analogy to amigas comes into play. It would be very unfair for me to marginalize all computers and their enthusiasts simply because a very small percentage of them can (and do) use them illegally and irresponsibly, causing harm to others. (Keeping in mind that in the Columbine incident, students detonated lethal weapons other than firearms, even though they had "easy" access to guns. They created them, in part, from instructions found on the internet. In other scenarios, we know of examples where motor vehicles were used to similar ill effect.)

This also touches on the issue of trust you have mentioned. In any society, citizens must be entrusted with certain rights and responsibilities, some of them requiring specific intervention and assessment by a governing body in order to ensure the safety and welfare of the "common good" (such as a driving licence, schooling and certification for doctors/etc) . I am entirely in support of the fair and honest regulation of firearms, I am totally OK with making it more difficult for criminals to obtain them, so long as it doesn't infringe upon the rights for those who enjoy them safely and responsibly to obtain them, or happen to draw an income from their sale or manufacture (like an acquaintance of mine who designs custom, carbon fiber barrels for .50 caliber projectiles).

"Global", blanket-type gun legislation irks me along the same vein as the way our government handled aircraft security after 9/11. It's not really the absence of guns that's bothersome, it's the general errosion of rights that serves no purpose to the honest citizen, while doing little or nothing to prevent criminal activity.

My apologies for the excessively long rant....and on that note, it's about time for a :pint:

cheers
 


Offline ltstanfo

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Re: Damn kids these days...
« Reply #29 from previous page: April 04, 2005, 02:44:32 PM »
Quote

metalman wrote:

  Capt. Dewayne Dow of the tribal police told a group of parents, teachers and staff at a three-hour school board meeting that authorities believe as many as 20 students were involved.

One law enforcement official said the FBI believes that as many as four students -- including gunman Jeff Weise and Louis Jourdain, a classmate arrested Sunday -- were directly involved in planning an attack on Red Lake High School, and well over a dozen others may have heard about the plot.


Since the facts of this case are becomming known, I would like to add my "2 cents"...

The link to the article above points out that there was a far deeper problem then someone using a firearm in a crime.  The gun was the tool that was used for this horror but as others have pointed out, if not a gun, something else could / would have been used.  IIRC the Columbine crime also had pipe bombs (there were some 30 bombs in all..see bottom of this post for link.)  What concerns me in this current case is that several people apparently knew what was going to happen and no one thought to speak out?

As for the "easy access" to the weapon used in this case, well, if you kill the adults who owns the firearm(s) (in this case the grandfather and grandmother) then you have all the time you need to get the gun from the house, safe, car, etc... before running off to school to continue the violence.  The weapon(s) were not owned by the killer.  He had to kill someone to get them.

Regards,
ltstanfo

Columbine link:
http://www.crimelibrary.com/notorious_murders/mass/littleton/bibli_8.html?sect=3
 
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