Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Author Topic: ACube and A-EON announce One Vision on future Amiga co-operation  (Read 23503 times)

Description:

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Andre.Siegel

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Join Date: Feb 2003
  • Posts: 151
    • Show all replies
    • http://www.power2people.org
Quote from: takemehomegrandma;754626
When the Pegasos 2 G4 was introduced a decade ago, its introduction price for end-users was €499 EUR (~$680 USD in todays rate) including VAT (was it Luxembourg's 15% rate?). Genesi's price strategy was to set an initial high price and then lower it over time (a "skimming" price strategy).

Considering the cost of development and production, the pricing of the Pegasos mainboards was very aggressive and chosen to help grow the market more quickly. If the product had been positioned as a niche product with small growth potential instead, the price would have had to be considerably higher than it was.

Quote
Back then I do recall that I thought it was kind of expensive for a motherboard/CPU combo, especially by the value of the money back then, but it was a small volume product for a narrow market, so high prices are to be expected, right? And when I say "high prices", I mean compared to x86 (not to PPC Mac's).

Everything is relative. If you compare the cost of a passively cooled Pegasos mainboard / processor combination to a passively cooled x86 solution from back then, it was not expensive at all. Even today, "silent computing" afficionados are willing to pay quite a premium.

Quote
It was neither designed nor manufactured in China, it was all European. After a while the price came down a bit, in *at least* 2 price drops IIRC. And when the Pegasos 2 was finally discontinued, the remaining stock was sold out at $399 USD, brand new.

This was via direct sales to consumers á la DELL, however. There were retailers that were not too happy about the price drops because their profit margins were rather slim to begin with and some of them still had mainboards in stock that they had bought at prices that did not allow them to match Genesi's lower pricing.

As happens often with startup companies, the distribution strategy for the Pegasos changed frequently from a traditional retail-focused approach, to an elaborate affiliate program, and direct sales.

Quote
At one time, some people in the Amiga community begged Genesi/bPlan (who was then completely focused on development based on ARM CPU's) to make another PPC motherboard. They thought this would be a bad idea themselves since they didn't see any business incentives for it (it would be an "impossible" product), but they finally agreed to do it provided that the community would cover the development cost.

A former Genesi contractor had an idea for a new PowerPC mainboard and asked bplan for a price quote. After a careful review and discussions on websites such as MorphZone, he concluded that it was too risky to proceed. This was the starting point for the bounty project.

Quote
This would be realized through a six (?) step bounty scheme, that in the end would add up to $60,000 (IIRC, or was it EUR, can't remember, doesn't really matter anyway).

The cost would have been about 100.000 US dollars.
 

Offline Andre.Siegel

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Join Date: Feb 2003
  • Posts: 151
    • Show all replies
    • http://www.power2people.org
Re: ACube and A-EON announce One Vision on future Amiga co-operation
« Reply #1 on: December 18, 2013, 04:44:17 PM »
Quote from: takemehomegrandma;754636
Well, I still have a hard time believing that you would have to manufacture the motherboards in China in volumes of tens of thousands per batch in order to build a PPC motherboard that *doesn't* cost €1,950 EUR (incl the UK VAT) in a Christmas Sale special price
The cost for the PA6T is said to have floated between 600 USD and 1000 USD. If someone would have told them in advance how volatile the pricing would be, I am certain that A-Eon would have picked a different processor.

Quote
"Trevor said that it cost over US$400,000 to develop the X1000."
Trevor himself stated that the engineering costs were about 200.000 USD, so around half of the amount you referenced. Considering the complexity of the mainboard and in comparison to the proposed MPC8610 mainboard to be designed by bplan, this number does not appear to be out of the ordinary at all.

Quote
"A-EON Technology & Ultra Varisys sign $1.2M agreement for new PowerPC hardware."
I would like to emphasize that the 1.2M figure refers to manufacturing / production as well.  

Quote
This can only lead to the price tags we have seen from them, especially if only a few hundreds of OS4 users are supposed to pay the bill. Maybe Trevor should have asked around some more before settling with Varisys, asked for quotations from more than one design company?
If you take the 100.000 USD quote from bplan and assume you can sell 200 mainboards, each board would have to cost an additional 500 USD just to cover the engineering fees. I do not think the Varisys quote was excessively high, especially since the company is known to be capable and trustworthy, which also has to be considered (potential financial risk vs. potential savings).

Quote
And maybe the design should have been a bit simpler? Did anyone even ask for a "Xorro"/"Xena" in the first place? And after having done the $3,000 X1000 systems with this crazy design from Varisys, why do it all over again for a new computer?
I assume the management made a deliberate decision to not directly compete with ACube.
« Last Edit: December 18, 2013, 04:47:08 PM by Andre.Siegel »
 

Offline Andre.Siegel

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Join Date: Feb 2003
  • Posts: 151
    • Show all replies
    • http://www.power2people.org
Re: ACube and A-EON announce One Vision on future Amiga co-operation
« Reply #2 on: December 19, 2013, 01:12:03 PM »
Quote from: takemehomegrandma;754684
OK, if that's true I stand corrected about the engineering costs, but it's still all "wrong", I mean, you can't spend $200,000 on engineering alone for a motherboard that can only sell in a hundred or so units (there was always an upper limit on available CPU's, even if they would reach out beyond the OS4 community)! And *then* another $600-$,1000 for the CPU alone. And *then* everything else on top of that!
If enough people bought the product to justify the release of a newer model, perhaps it was not so absurd afterall.

Either the initial investment was completely recouped or the investors did not mind spending money on a project that they enjoy. If someone is so successful in his or her primary career that he or she could run a non-profitable computer hardware business "just for fun", who are we to tell this person to not do it?


Quote
But had bPlan developed the motherboard "in-house" for "themselves" (read: their own business), they would probably have "priced" the development costs differently, right? Then the *monetary costs* wouldn't have been $100.000 USD any more, it would be more a matter of unpaid work hours and materials. Like Jens Schönfeld probably also does, or Fab when developing Odyssey. Had Fab put a market price tag on all the work hours of his time (mostly evenings and weekends probably, making them even more "expensive") he spent on Odyssey based on the hourly salary of a senior western SW developer, it would hardly be open sourced at just a mere €7,500 EUR. And MorphOS would cost a lot more than the current €50-€111 EUR for the same reason. I have built my own house "myself". Granted, I paid some carpenters, electricians, plummer's, etc to do some (quite a lot) of the work, but I did a very much of the work myself. I did never put a price on my own "development", I invested my own time into the project. Had I paid craftsmen to do every single thing, it would have been a lot more expensive, and even if I could have afforded it myself, the price I would have to ask at a sale in order to not make a loss when/if I sell it would probably have been *way out* of consumer's reach in my area, hence the house would have ended up unsalable. But if I'd sell my house at the current going prices in the area, I would probably make a nice little "profit", since I didn't price my own work/time, or priced it very low, compared to a "commercial carpenter". Whatever I get between what I paid for the fixed costs of having craftsmen doing some of the work, and the final end-user price the new house owner pays me, will be my "profit", the cost of labor isn't there, it was never priced. Or rather, it would have become priced by that "profit", *that's* what my labor turned out to be worth. I actually think most small/independent HW/SW entrepreneurs reason a bit the same way, and are happy with that...?
I find your entire argumentation to be deeply inconsistent. A few posts back you accused A-Eon of being too incompetent on the management level to ask more than one design house for price quotes, and now you accuse them of not treating it like a hobby and finding people willing to slave away for nothing so they can have a product to sell...

You completely underestimate the complexities of the hardware business. If someone finds a severe bug in the X1000 board design that causes data loss, Varisys are fully liable and they are big enough that A-Eon would have a good chance of receiving funds from them. If you have somebody design something for free, then you are fully liable for any issues with the design. If your hobby hardware designer made a mistake, "free" can turn into "extremely costly". Personally, I would feel very uneasy to pay a six figure sum for a production run of a hardware design that was done by some guy on a shoestring budget. When you are selling custom computer hardware, the designing phase is absolutely crucial and should receive sufficient attention and resources. (Even very experienced engineers can run into expensive hardware problems as the Articia S fiasco showed.)

As far as I can tell, ACube operate more or less the way you outlined. Yet, you are unhappy with their lower pricing as well. I think you have simply unrealistic expectations.


Quote
Ah, a "price ring" cartel, you mean?;)
Just regular product positioning based on internal market segmentation analysis.
 

Offline Andre.Siegel

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Join Date: Feb 2003
  • Posts: 151
    • Show all replies
    • http://www.power2people.org
Re: ACube and A-EON announce One Vision on future Amiga co-operation
« Reply #3 on: December 19, 2013, 04:44:36 PM »
Quote from: OlafS3;754716
What TMHG propably means it is simply crazy to build custom hardware based on PPC in 2013.
In this particular discussion thread, this was not his argument. In response to people discussing manufacturing in Italy, he specifically referenced the Pegasos 2 mainboard and implicitly put its pricing in relation to Acube and A-EON's offerings.

However, he mistakenly assumed that the Pegasos 2 price included VAT which was not accurate. The order page at pegasosppc.com specifically stated that taxes were not included: Web Archive

Also, if you care to compare 2003 prices to 2013 prices in a meaningful way, you actually have to adjust for inflation. 680 USD in 2003 equals 861 USD in 2013 (26.7% cumulative rate of inflation). That would be 630 EUR which is just a mere 50 EUR less than the most expensive mainboard listed in Acube's webshop where prices range between 270 and 679 EUR (excluding taxes).

Quote
I am self-employed and have to do with small to medium companies, for a company it is critical to easily replace broken hardware, one reason why this hobby system would have no chance to be sold to professionals (besides of price, missing software and so on).
Frankly, general professional use is out of the scrope for the discussed operating systems in any case. These are technical solutions for hobby use or, as I like to say, "Recreational Computing". They are the computer equivalent of quad bikes. Highly impractical for daily commuting in many areas, but some people greatly enjoy to ride one on weekends nevertheless.
« Last Edit: December 19, 2013, 04:51:10 PM by Andre.Siegel »