Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Author Topic: Faulty Gfx card? - Random "noise" lines on screen  (Read 5151 times)

Description:

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Floid

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Join Date: Feb 2003
  • Posts: 918
    • Show all replies
Re: Faulty Gfx card? - New PSU suggestions?
« on: July 03, 2008, 05:31:27 PM »
Quote

Piru wrote:
Remember that even the most efficient PSUs have only around 80% efficiency, meaning that with 550W PSU you will be losing minimum 110W, even when totally idle.

With that 650W/720W it would be 130W/144W lossage... Ouch.


Eh?  These are switching power supplies.  The wattage ratings are maximum-output-before-fire, but the actual power varies based on load.  A given design has a sweet spot for load (and indeed a minimum load) along with its own operating losses, but taking 80% of the maximum rated load won't give you a realistic idle figure except by dumb luck.

SilentPCReview has some real-world numbers.  The "output" is the actual current demanded by the idle components, which, with spinning drives, fans, and dozens of hot'n'hungry transistors, adds up.  The "input" is what the PSU sucks from the wall to feed that demand.  

Those are some trendy, expensive, probably 80%+-certified PSUs, but you can see that the PSU is only eating about 20W (~70% efficiency, per the curve) to support the system at idle.  That's a couple (incandescent!) light bulbs off from your estimate.

...

Anyhow, if someone wants to blame the PSU, my FSP (Fortron Source) "Green" units are still going strong, probably still one of the cheaper options out there.  YMMV.
 

Offline Floid

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Join Date: Feb 2003
  • Posts: 918
    • Show all replies
Re: Faulty Gfx card? - New PSU suggestions?
« Reply #1 on: July 03, 2008, 05:44:04 PM »
In relation to the power questions -- the symptoms are a line on the monitor and a crackle in the speakers, two items that are also separately powered.  Speakers (and potentially display cables) can pick up noise from anywhere, but if this is really transient, is it possible that the monitor might just have a favorite spot to flicker when a nearby A/C compressor or something clicks on?


There can also be a lot of subtle timing issues with video that aren't so much defects as SNAFUs depending on different hardware's tolerances.  Is the monitor in question a CRT or LCD?  Does it get worse if you run the digital DVI output to a DVI-supporting monitor, or does it disappear?
 

Offline Floid

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Join Date: Feb 2003
  • Posts: 918
    • Show all replies
Re: Faulty Gfx card? - Random "noise" lines on screen
« Reply #2 on: July 03, 2008, 05:53:42 PM »
Quote

DrDekker wrote:
I'm not too sure on this but....


The Internet can help. Really, it can.  (If the card weren't compatible with the slot, there would probably be much bigger problems than the occasional line.)
 

Offline Floid

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Join Date: Feb 2003
  • Posts: 918
    • Show all replies
Re: Faulty Gfx card? - Random "noise" lines on screen
« Reply #3 on: July 04, 2008, 01:31:12 AM »
Quote

Hodgkinson wrote:
Thanks for the replies.

If it were solely interference related, I'd of expected to see it before I started beefing-up the system, whereas im my case it only started appearing afterwards, which is why im suspecting the PSU so much.


Beefing up = new graphics card?  I'd be inclined to agree, really, unless this also coincided with the start of the air conditioning season.  I'm also from NTSC-land, so maybe my idea of a line of static is slightly different...

Quote
The screen is a Sony Trinitron MultiScan E500 CRT, and with using either the DVI output (Via adaptor to VGA) or the straight VGA output yields the same problem (Granted, I haven't actually tried DVI yet, but I'd have to yoink a LCD off another system for a good couple of days to test it).


A CRT rules out any LCD analog-input quirks.  It could still be susceptible to power transients, I guess.

Is the 'line' a simple black or white line/near-imperceptible 'shudder' of the display?  Or is it clearly multicolored (or noticably colored) garbage?

If it's colorful and really looks like garbage of some form or another, I'd immediately suspect the graphics memory/access to it.  If it's more subtle, well.. monitor issues are ruled out by trying another monitor.

Quote
Re voltages, the card has both the 1.5v and 3.3v keys, so I assume it should work quite happily (I read that the mobo is AGP 4x max from the manual, and hear that its only 2x max from the previous owner).

EDIT: I’m surprised that no-one's commented on the idle HDD in the bottom of the tower in the photos :crazy:


I think I missed any link to the photos.  There's not one actually showing the symptom, is there?

If it really seems to be the video memory... I'm loathe to overvolt, but I have to admit, I recently went through some horror with system memory on a DDR2 machine where the regulation was biased just enough for vDIMM to be too weak for certain portions of a DIMM.

That was hell to figure out, and video cards should have their own regulators on-board that aren't meant to be user-tweakable.  But if any of your voltages read lower than they should (4.999 vs 5, 3.299 vs 3.3) and your BIOS has tunable regulation, you could try giving them the slightest bump.  Or you could RMA it and hope you get one that works within the tolerances of your system.  (Or it could quite easily be hosed in a way that power can't help...)

It might help to look for video memory testing utilities.  I have no recommendations and I'm not sure if any of them produce truly useful output (the ones I'm finding on Google seem to bill themselves as 'stress tests'), but they do seem to exist.
 

Offline Floid

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Join Date: Feb 2003
  • Posts: 918
    • Show all replies
Re: Faulty Gfx card? - Random "noise" lines on screen
« Reply #4 on: July 05, 2008, 04:32:26 AM »
Quote

Hodgkinson wrote:
You see those big clumps of caps near the processor? If I remember rightly the reason why we were given the board was because the original caps were leaking. That's our repair job (Including the rather more concerning point that all the caps that we used there are not low-ESR - The only ones we had - Whereas the originals were low-ESR).


Hmm, the pictures were sort of informative, maybe not in the way you were hoping.

That's a Via KT133A-based board; I had one too not too long ago (no real problems with the Matrox G200 installed in it, heh).  It probably has the 686B southbridge with the obscure issue that can potentially cause major headaches with PCI peripherals.  That might be the issue with your USB card.

Or, depending on the chipset of the USB card, you could be running into a hardware quirk with the USB chipset... by awkward coincidence, Via is the manufacturer with a quirk that I'd expect to find on an add-on card, NECs seem to be the baseline for 'known good.'  [I'd also assume the vendor drivers for Windows address or avoid the quirks, since the issues I'm thinking of appear to have been 'discovered' with *NIX... so that'd be more reason to question the PCI business first.]

Quote
On a similar note, I’m afraid I’m similarly inclined with regards to BIOS updates - From what we've heard there a last-minute resort if nothing else works, and are prone to ruining systems (Well, the last firmware update - As included on the CD and instructed in the manual - Made my MP4 player revert to Spanish menu's every time it was turned on. Fortunately I could take that one back for a refund)


Dodgy MP3 players aside, most BIOS updates just include patches pushed by (and tested by) the chipset vendor, CPUIDs for compatibility with newer processors, and fixes for any braindeadness in the configuration utility.

That board is worth about US$1 now, the final BIOS release probably happened 3 years ago, and some of the 686B's quirks could be mitigated in device configuration registers that get set by the BIOS.  You might as well apply that last update and see if anything (particularly data integrity re: the USB card) magically improves.

Quote
Heh, on the subject of stuff not working, whenever you use the onboard USB, the machine never powers-off the PSU. Windows shuts down and there's a click, but the PSU stays on - Every single time. Don’t use the on-board USB, and it powers-off fine (Guessing it’s also a BIOS issue…).


See above; that is just plain odd, though.  I'm not of a mind to try to figure out how the capacitor swap might contribute.

Anyhow, back to the graphics card:

I found some vague references to KT133A AGP VDDQ issues, but they aren't really clear.  You'd also think a more modern 8x card that has to accept down to .8v would be tolerant in that regard.

It never hurts to turn the "Spread Spectrum" BIOS options off, if they aren't, particularly any relating to the AGP bus while you're questioning an AGP card.

As to the voltage question... I admire your tenacity, but if you're going that far, have you taken readings directly off the pins of the monitoring chip?  I used to think the monitors had a huge margin of error as well, but after my little DDR2 adventure (admittedly on a much newer board, where such features might have developed much tighter tolerances) I'm inclined to suspect they might actually accurately reflect conditions at their point on the PCB.  (Which, if a bias is being introduced somewhere, might be the reality for the other components on that PCB...)

Along with all that, I'd still try to find some way to test whether it actually is the card's graphics memory.  Good luck with that, let us know if you ever find a way.  :-?