Kickflash experiences

[tjaoz]

@JohnFante

I am considering buying a Kickflash from Induvidual Computers for my A4000D.

If you have A4000 you should rather choose an eFlash 4000 card. Eflash 4000 is a regular Zorro III card, Kickflash is a Zorro II card. Yes, Kickflash works in Zorro III slots, but in Zorro II mode only. It makes that the access to the Kickflash Flash memory is over 10 times slower than to eFlash 4000 Flash memory.

Paying a little bit more only you can have eFlash 4000 with 2MB(!) of Flash memory. Additionally Elbox has worldwide Free Shipping offer now. :-D

[tjaoz]

@platon42

Ah, the little Elbox-Rat is back.

Ah, a poor E3B-bandog is back again,  :lol:
 

Oh, right! Except for that factor of ten must be from your wildest dreams, let's calculate: Reading 1MB over Zorro II with 2.8MB/sec is about 0.35 seconds. Now, reading 1MB over Zorro III with presumably 7MB/sec is 0.14 secs.

Your numbers problem recur again. The true numbers are:

1. Kickflash Flash memory access speed is about 1.4MB/s. This is half the Zorro II speed only because Kickflash Flash memory is physically connected to only 8 of the 16 data lines of the Zorro II bus.

2. Eflash4000 Flash memory access speed is about 16MB/s. Everyone can easy check it with the Bustest program.

The hardware of the Elbox' eFlash differs a lot from others Flashes. Eflash 4000 is a clear Flash memory design. The whole eFlash memory is directly available in the Amiga Zorro III area. It opens the possibility of using the eFlash 4000 card not only during the computer start like other Flashes but also as the non-volatile Flash disk with fast random access.

Yeah, and what would you want to fill in there? The eFlash software has no support for Kickstart flashing and it allows only a maximum of 15 modules.

You should check your sources before posting your imagination numbers about Elbox products.  Eflash 4000 software allows storing the AmigaOS ROM Update and 24 other modules. Not 15, as you wrote.

Unfortunately, the eFlash software does not support compression, unlike the Algor (Pro) software, hence, you could easily fit nearly same amount in an Algor Pro FlashRom-

So far software for eFlash 4000 does not need to use compression because this card includes from 2 to 4 times more Flash memory than other Amiga cards with Flash. AFAIK Elbox plans to include compression for OS4 modules. Adding the compression in the firmware is a matter of few hours for the software developer, though.

The important factor is the real amount of the Flash memory installed on the card. This cannot be changed by any software update.
In this category eFlash 4000 is always much ahead, especially ahead of E3B products.

I read the comment from an OS4 betatester that there is no chance to insert the OS4 Kickstart files into 0.5MB of the Flash memory (Algor/Romulus) even if you use strong compression. So, no OS4 Kickstart files in Agor/Romulus Flash memory?

In a german magazine, Amiga Plus (recent issue), Algor/Romulus, eFlash and KickFlash have been tested intensively.

I have not seen this test, so I cannot tell your fantasy apart from what was really written in this test.

I read in someone's comment that in this Amiga Plus review eFlash 4000/1MB WON with Kickflash. But it looks that this is something, what you would rather prefer to hide here. :-)

[tjaoz]

@platon42:

As you don't seem to get it into your head: Speed for reading the flashrom does not matter. It is not time critical. This is no video memory or data memory that has to be accessed all of the time. It is read once. Is a Rat's brain too small to get this?

Is your head so small that only E3B cliches may find room there, like that: "Speed never does matter"? :lol:

When producers of computer USB cards stopped producing USB 1.1 controllers, replacing them with Hi-Speed USB 2.0 units, he started releasing USB 1.1 controllers (Highway/Subway/Algor). You know: For E3B products "Speed never does matter."  :lol:

For your information -- there is a flashdisk.device for the Algor for more than a year now, which could be used for a non-volatile Flash disk.

Oh, so you are now recalling that Flash cards may be used NOT ONLY during the computer's startup!!!

But what is the point in using Algor or Kickflash as a Flash disk, if their read speed is lower than that of a hard disk?

Here 16MB/s of the eFlash 4000 and full random access to any address of its one or two megabyte of the Flash memory go far beyond other Flash solutions.

Isn't the Algor/Romulus memory access sequential only? Does it have to the 64kB of Flash memory be read before getting to the last word of each Algor/Romulus memory page?
If yes, this would mean that average random access to Algor/Romulus Flash memory is at the level of ca. 88 kilobytes per second. Compare it with 16 megabytes per second, the average random access in the eFlash 4000 card! :-D

The Algor PRO has 1MB of flash memory.

As for now Algor Pro is a vapourware. Isn't it?
Quoting your words: 'There is a difference between providing something and merely "planning".'

> I read the comment from an OS4 betatester that there is no chance to insert the OS4 Kickstart files into 0.5MB of the Flash memory (Algor/Romulus) even if you use strong compression. So, no OS4 Kickstart files in Agor/Romulus Flash memory?

I've been in contact with the Frieden brothers several times and they suppose it is possible.

If now OS4 Kickstart files prove to be too large for 0.5MB in Algor/Romulus Flash, will E3B make Frieden brothers guilty of that? :-o
Looks like Elbox and Individual had long known that 0.5 MB is not enough.

The Algor was rated with 6/6,
the Romulus got 5,5/6,
the eFlash 5/6,
the KickFlash 4/6

I will never ever understand, why the eFlash still got 5/6 (must have something to do with Elbox advertising in the mag on a full cover page?)

Do you suggest that the Amiga Plus test is not objective and honest? :-o
If yes, it means that Algor's ranking is not objective and honest, as well.

Maybe you two, you and your friend from E3B, got in touch with someone from this German mag so that he praised your products?  Well, it's probably cheaper than sponsoring a magazine by buying advertising space.

In this way even an obsolete USB1.1-standard controller (it means without the Hi-Speed mode) may be easily made a high-end unit in any test, just let the tester pretend that he had never heard of any other USB standard. :-)

BTW Does the Kickflash producer not gives its advertising in Amiga Plus?

[tjaoz]

@Piru

Sorry, but your a), b), c) have nothing to do with the question, to which you responded.

The question was:  

But what is the point in using Algor or Kickflash as ***a Flash disk***, if their read speed is lower than that of a hard disk?

[tjaoz]

@voxel

The kickflash 1Gb module is said to be a sort of "ram disk", application would be to have a non volatile ram disk (it is a flashrom after all  ) you would like to use for some kiosk or stb style boxes.

I would not count on Individuals to ever make that mythological 1GB Flash disk connected to clock port.

A much better Flash disk for Amiga comes from connecting any Compact Flash (16MB to 6GB) card through the CF-IDE adapter to the IDE port. Those CF to IDE adaptors are available on ebay for around $6, look here.

Connecting Compact Flash memory through the 16-bit IDE port has a number of advantages over connecting Flash memory to the clock port (that is through the 8-bit data bus and 4 address lines only!).

[tjaoz]

@platon42

BTW: Whenever it comes to facts, you gladly seem to ignore them.

It is you, who is all the time casting false suspicions, and when I prove they are false, you change the subject matter.

So? Full random *read only* access is worth nothing.

This is what you want others to believe. You know why?  Because random read access in E3B cards is so messed up that it is unusable. So you have to pretend that Flash memory reading different from sequential is not necessary in Amiga. :-D

You're talking BS again, little Rat. Why don't you simply admit that you don't have a single clue about how Flash memory works, especially on the Algor? The Algor has full random access (bytes, words, longwords) within a window of 4 KB. The Algor flashrom can be read at full Zorro II speed (2.8MB/sec).

It is not true.

Random read access to Flash in E3 products CANNOT work at Zorro II full speed. To make this speed possible, even in the quoted by you 4KB window range, at least 12 Amiga address lines should be connected to the Flash. This is not the fact!
Just watch the Algor board and see connection of address lines. Well, it is enough to read the description of the connector, to which Romulus is connected. This connector has only 5 Amiga address lines connected!

What does it mean?
Address lines of the Flash memory in E3B cards are controlled not directly from Amiga, but indirectly through CPLD circuit. With this indirect control, 2 addressing methods could have been used:

1.  The CPLD circuit generates sequentially Flash addresses, incrementing the internal address counter at each successive reading.

2.  Access to the selected Flash memory location requires two steps: firstly--writing the address of the location (which you want to read from Flash) to the CPLD circuit, secondly--reading the Flash memory in the next access to the Zorro card.

If E3B chose the first option, read access depends on how far from the beginning of the 4KB page area the read location is located. For example, to read the 1000th word of the Flash page, additional 999 technical readings are necessary only for incrementing the CPLD address counter. With this solution, average random read time of Algor/Romulus Flash memory is 2.8 kilobytes/s :lol:

In the second case, reading the selected location of the Flash memory requires a prior sending information to CPLD about the window number and the address within the window. In the next command, this location can be read. Here, average random read time to Algor/Romulus Flash memory is  half of the Zorro II speed.

As the speed issue makes you so nervous, it looks like E3B decided on the first method. :-D

> As for now Algor Pro is a vapourware. Isn't it?

the software is ready for weeks now, only the cards have to be shipped.

Algor pro IS vapourware, according to your own vapourware definition. Until today Algor pro is not available.

For the eFlash board providing *only* a flashrom feature wasting a complete Zorro III slot, this is a very poor result (the KickFlash at least has got an additional clockport which the eFlash lacks). The Algor was developed AND released more than a year ago (!), and its flashrom capabilities were only a nice bonus (the main purpose was to provide a fast USB controller) -- and STILL its features and product quality are not beaten by other products, especially not by the eFlash

The quality of hardware of the Flash part of the Algor/Romulus cards is beaten by the Eflash 4000 hardware MANY times.

In ALL fields, the eFlash 4000 hardware is better:

1. eFlash 4000 is a fast and clean design, while Algor implementation of the Flash memory is a hard hardware hack.

2. eFlash is equipped with hardware protection against unwanted reprogramming, which is very important because Flash memories have limited reprogramming cycles amount. When you have no hardware write protection (Algor and Romulus case) of the Flash memory you are always exposed to destroying your Flash memory by a malicious virus before you find out that some software is rewriting it again and again.

3. eFlash 4000 uses hi-quality Flash memories, which can be programmed 100,000 times, not only 10,000 times like memories in Algor/Romulus.

I do not have to comment that the Algor's edge connector is not gold-plated, which in itself eliminates that product in the very beginning.
 
As regards your "fast" USB controller", it's a bit exaggeration. Algor is an old-fashioned obsolete USB 1.1 standard controller.

And if you weren't stating your BS so obviously, people might be believing you more easily. But by now, everybody knows who pays you for this.

Yesterday you suggested here that the German Amiga Plus mag was bribed by someone, and today you are suggesting that I was bribed.

The most funniest thing in all this is that you are being fed by E3B. :lol:

[tjaoz]

@mboehmer_e3b

My godness. While I spent two weeks in hospital, my friend Ratty is back again... well. I didn't expect fair behaviour from Elbox, so what.

Poor Michael, good to know you are back to the net.
Unfortunately, your hospital stay did not work a lot, you still exhibit symptoms of some type of mental disorder called paranoid schizophrenia and you hear Elbox voices everywhere.

It looks like you need more treatment... :-D

Haha. This is a good one. You know, ROMulus is located on both the HIGHWAY clockport and the expansion port. I'm astonished that you made such a mistake while doing backward engineering. Please download the HIGHWAY manual from my website and do your homework properly. And, for exercising mathematics, clockports have four (4) address lines, namely A[5:2]. You know, one less than you have fingers on one hand.

How many address lines there are in the clock port is of no relevance. There is not a single address line in the clock port which would not be in the expansion port. Their numbers do not sum up, as they are exactly the same address lines.
 
So there are no 12 different address lines, so it is too few of them to make Algor/Romulus Flash memory having random average speed (even in the 4KB page) at the Zorro II speed level. Period.

> In the second case, reading the selected location of the Flash memory requires a prior sending information to CPLD about the window number and the address within the window.

You are wrong here, sorry.

Hehe, that's what I thought. As the read speed issue makes your friend Chris so nervous, it looks like you had decided for the first method: "1. The CPLD circuit generates sequentially Flash addresses, incrementing the internal address counter at each successive reading."

With this solution, average random read speed of Algor/Romulus Flash memory is 2.8 kilobytes/s. :lol:

Anyhow, some remarks on the eFlash, just by looking at the picture in the AmigaPlus magazine:

Really humorous how much you worry about Elbox making an interface faster than 16MB/s, while your own interface is SEVERAL times slower. :-)  

[tjaoz]

@Doobrey

Who in their right mind would actually need to reflash the memory 10,000 times let alone 100,000??

When the Flash card is hardware protected against unwanted writing, it is not important so much. What about when the card does not have such protection?! Algor and Romulus do not have it!

At least he`s open about being paid by E3B for his work.
Funny that Tjaoz, cos the only posts you ever make on Amiga.org are to promote Elbox`s products and slag off their competitors products. Do you get paid by your post count, or are you on a salary?

I have nothing to do with Elbox, sorry.

I'm Hodges' client. Hodges cancelled my Poseidon keys which I bought from him. He did it after I wrote in a Highway ML that there was an error in the specs of the product by his friend Michel (E3B). At the same time, his friend Michael Boehmer sent me private messages with threats. All in all, I was cheated by Hodges, plus I am all the time attacked and offended by him and his friend Michael. I do not like Hodges' way of doing business. I thought if he cancelled your key for which you had paid, you would be the same more critical about his behaviour. By the way, he is attacking me and offending whenever he can. :pissed:

I do not hide the fact that I have many of Elbox products. I value them very much and I have enough courage to speak about it although I know I am going against a small group of fanatic enemies of Elbox, who see Elbox as competition to their favourites.

[tjaoz]

Karlos

Anyway, I'm not taking the "flashrom as disk" idea too seriously, but I don't think any serious attempt would work in the method described, not if 0.18mB/s was the theoretical max

Theorethical max? Rather theoretical min.

Michael tried to calculate write speed assuming that the whole sector must be rewritten only because he want to modify one bit. As you properly noted, he completely forgot that data caching may be used in such situations.

BTW. His calculations are wrong. eFlash 4000/1MB uses two MX29F400 memories connected to 16 data lines each. These chips work in the 16-bit mode then. In this mode MX29F400 sectors need 4k, 8k, 16k or 32k writes, but never 64k as Michael assumed. (MX29F400 datasheet is here.)

Anyway it is clear that write time to the Flash is much slower than its read time, so using it as RAM is pointless. However, it is good to use it as a super fast hard drive (with zero seek time), where data may be stored, which do not require frequent modifications, and which are needed to be accessed (read) very fast, like password lists, key lists, signatures (including photos) or other personal data.
Anyway, I think that everyone can think about a number of reasonable applications for this fast, noiseless disk.

[tjaoz]

 @Karlos

I have to admit, whatever your agenda is, in the time I have been a member here I have yet to see you express an opinion on anything in the fora that isn't directly slamming a product that is in competition with an Elbox one.

This does not do much for your credibility, nor does arguing with the designers of a rival product over their implementation - you simply cannot know more about their product than they do. Quite why you take this approach is beyond me.

Perhaps both sides can simply explain the virtues of their product without mentioning their competition?

Hello Karlos,

Could you please make an extra effort and view this thread from its beginning and you will see who is attacking whom here and who bashes competitive products.

I only wrote a reply to JohnFante that if he had an A4000 (it means an Amiga with the Zorro III slots), he should rather purchase a Flash card in Zorro III and not Zorro II standard. Is it any attack against anybody for you?

Now you see what Hodges wrote to my post. Note the personally offensive and aggressive mood of Hodges comment. See how this boy speaks about products of another company. See his posts. With his aggressive posts, Hodges shows only that his hatred of Elbox has become a psycho illness.

As regards a 'rival product', I am not a producer but a USER of many Elbox products. I know from my experience how Elbox cares about the highest quality of these products, how they care about continuous updating of their software and how fast they respond to my emails sent to their support.

If you want to find people speaking here about 'rival product' check posts of Hodges and Boehmer. They ARE producers of Algor and Romulus. Algor/Romulus was not the topic of this thread BTW.

As regards my discussions about technical details of some products, I do not say I know them better than their designers. Some technical details are clearly visible even without any access to the product documentation. Their designers are not always willing to show these details, which are not comfortable for them. Please note that Michael Boehmer so far has not written how Flash memory addressing is executed in his product (method 1., method 2. or mix of 1. and 2.), and the actual read speed of this device HIGHLY depends on it.

As concerns always mentioning the competition products: It is the E3B habit, not Elbox. Below is a cite showing how Elbox responses to the Boehmer attacks on Elbox products on the Highway ML:
"My proposal for you is thus: instead of speculating about our company and our hardware in this list, would you please concentrate on your own products and support for them. A mailing list like this one is not a place for disputes between companies."

Boehmer and Hodges often publicly attack Elbox and Elbox products. And they always cry that they do it only because they are attacked by Elbox, which is not the case. In all these discussions suddenly a few people appear (e.g. Kronos here), which are willing to bash Elbox. Usually they even do not know what is the thread subject.


@Redrumloa

If you use Amiga.org, and especially the "Amiga on eBay" section, as a place for advertising products, which you distribute, you should be honest in giving their features. It is not fair when you behave like a person who does not know his trade goods and makes up fiction features to these products. You did it in the "3 more products added Catweasel etc" parallel thread, writing that Buddha "probably" supports PIO-3 or PIO-4, which is not true. In earlier discussions you spoke about features of the Prometheus cards, which are not available in the real world. Only in such cases I take note of the facts. Instead of feeling offended, you should rather thank me for helping you being reliable for your customers.


Sorry, no more responses today.
I'm going to see the match Wisla Krakow - Real Madrid. :-)

Jacek