AmigaOS 4.1 Classic Available To Buy

[HammerD]

Thanks Amigakit, order placed

Some more information on the Blog site:

http://blog.hyperion-entertainment.biz

[HammerD]

Well PPC executables are larger than 68k ones.  New kernel, memory system, Intuition, new icon format, larger resolutions, backdrop images, etc etc....all take up more memory.

The Blizzard PPC can take up to 256MB of physical ram - the Cyberstorm PPC 128MB, and with additional memory via disk-paging or zorro 3 memory boards, I don't see it as a problem.

If I run OS 3.9 on a high colour screen using a graphics card I'm also never going to be able to run it in 2MB.

You can't compare it with a stock OS 3.9 install with no graphics card.

We are pushing the limits of the Classic architecture for sure - trying to get the most we can out of it while providing the latest version of the Operating system and providing some extra fun for Classic PPC users and the capability to run all the AmigaOS 4.1 applications.

If you want to run a pure classic system using only 2MB of ram there are other alternatives like a Minmig or stock A1200, CD32, etc.

[HammerD]

Don't forget the emulator you'll need to run Amiga software.

Correct, petunia can take up some memory like 5-10MB.  But you can disable that if you wish and just run with the integrated interpretive emulation.  Although that also requires memory.

[HammerD]

>OS3.9 lists 6MB of Fast RAM in its requirements... Still a lot less, but 16 times less, not 50...

I know, but 6Mb isn't necessary, it will indeed boot on a 2Mb system.

If you were to strip out all of the new functionality and features of OS4.x it probably also would boot in a similar memory footprint.   You can't boot MorphOS or AROS in 2MB either.  Even if you could you wouldn't be too functional, and i dare say OS 3.9 isn't too functional either in 2MB.

[HammerD]

No, you've missed my point. I am disappointed that the PCI Mediator hardware has not been embraced by Hyperion, who see it as an obscure piece of hardware, and won't allow it room in their OS, so the DMA hack that works so well under OS3.9 is prevented from working at all under OS4.x, purely because Hyperion - The Friedens, don't like how it works, and so won't give it that bit of room to allow the PCI slots to function as they do under OS3.x.

I think you might be over-estimating what that "DMA hack" would actually buy you.  Lets first take a look at what is supported on the Mediator - out of the box - by the way, with OS 4.1 Classic:

-Realtek 8029 Network card that can get you about 800KB/sec.
-PCI Radeon 9200 or 9250 with up to 256MB of graphics card memory and hardware accelerated Warp3D, MiniGL, and compositing for nice transparency and effects on the Workbench
-Or choose a Voodoo 3/4 or 5 PCI card with up to 32MB of gfx ram.
-Silicon Image PCI Serial ATA cards based on the 3112, 3114, or 3512 chipsets.  SATA CDROM/DVD ROM drives, External Docks, SATA hard disks.
-ESS Solo-1 PCI Sound card

Ok, so what would that DMA hack buy us?

1) Maybe the capability to use gfx card memory as an addition to physical ram.
2) The possibility to use a 100Mbit network card
3) The possibility to use a SB 128 PCI sound card, and perhaps a few other models
4) The possibility to use an Analog TV Tuner card
5) The possibility to use a 3rd party SCSI card driver (which is like 1MB/sec last I checked)

Ok...

For 1) You can use a ZorRAM or hard disk based swap partition.  You don't need to take away any gfx card ram to use as physical ram (which, by the way, is way slower than any ram on the Blizzard PPC or Cyberstorm PPC).

2) Even if you had a 100Mbit network card, the overall system isn't fast enough to get much over 1MB/sec.  I have tried this under OS 3.9 - using a 100Mbit card, and really, the performance difference is almost non-existing.  You are better off to use a USB network adapter connected to a Deneb and you can get nearly 1MB/sec.

3)  ESS Solo-1 works fine, other sound cards would buy you next to nothing additional.

4) Analog TV is on the way out, in fact most countries already discontinued it.  Even if you had it.  I mean really, do you want to use your Amiga to watch TV all the time?

5) SCSI is nice, but SATA is so much easier (and faster than this 3rd party SCSI driver last I checked.  nice to have it, but you have SCSI already on the cyberstorm PPC (sorry not blizzard yet), but still, SCSI is totally replaced in the real world since a long time.

Taking all of this into consdieration: With OS 4.1 Classic you can use - out of the box - no additional drivers or setup required - a Radeon 9250 with 256MB, a SATA card, a PCI Sound card, and a PCI network card.   Plus you can use Zorro cards like the Deneb, ZorRAM and others.

In my opinion that DMA hack (which by the way is only between PCI cards - not over Zorro and to the CPU card) is not required to make AmigaOS 4.1 Classic a nice functional upgrade for most Classic users who have PPC cards.

The out-of-the-box experience is *far superior* to AmigaOS 3.9 (and even 4.0 functionally) if you have a PPC card and a gfx card.  You don't even need a Mediator or Prometheus to be functional if you have Zorro equivalent cards.

PS - just so you know, Hyperion worked with Elbox to properly support the Mediator in AmigaOS 4.1 Classic. We had questions, they answered them for us.  They also provided the included FastATA driver.  OK, no DMA hack, but really, it's not needed.

[HammerD]

Absolutely no use in a Mediator system on an A1200 as you cannot fit a ZorRAM card in it as there is no Zorro 3 interface on a Mediator or on a standard A1200, it is only of any use in an A4000, and maybe an A3000 also.  Are you the owner of a PPC A4000 or A3000 by any chance?

Yes, however, the Blizzard with 256MB physical ram capability lessens the need for any ZorRAM.  You could use a swap partition on a SATA hard disk if you need it.  The Cyberstorm PPC can only take 128MB of physical ram, so that is why the ZorRAM is important in that case.

Again you are quoting using a piece of hardware, Deneb, that can ONLY be used in Zorro 3 interface, which doesn't exist in an A1200 Mediator system. What's more, if I got a little more speed out of a 100MB NIC, then that would be an improvement in any case, and I'd take that opportunity, but it's being denied us.

Possibly getting a couple hundred KB more out of a NIC, at least to me, isn't that compelling of a reason...but if that's a critical factor for you, that's your decision and nothing I can do to change it.

The ESS Solo-1 Soundcard is an old PCI card, and is now very difficult to get hold of, and I don't know of an Amiga supplier that stocks it, do you? The other soundcards are very easy to acquire, so why go and develop for a soundcard that is obscure and difficult to come by in significant numbers for Mediator users that might need one for Classic OS4.1?

No, but my local corner computer store had more than 10 in stock, brand new, for about $15 bucks each.  I bet they are still there, so at least for me it was easier to get that then to order one from an Amiga dealer.

Yes, but we're using a CLASSIC system here, and SCSI hardware is still a valid hardware format for CLASSIC systems, or else we wouldn't want a Classic OS 4.1 would we?

In any case why is the SCSI working on the A4000 accelerator cards, and not on the Blizzard SCSI adapter, if you know?

Which is why we have included SATA support - to allow users to use cheap and readily available SATA hard disks.  As I have stated in other threads, it is quite possible that work on the Blizzard PPC SCSI driver _may_ start after the BlizzardVision Warp3D driver.  It's not exactly easy to find someone to write this Blizzard SCSI Driver...trust me.  Go try to ask someone to write it...luckily we have a developer who is willing to take a crack at it, but he's very busy at the moment.   There are probably only about 5-6 people with the expertise to write the driver (who also have expertise on Amiga) and half of those people are MorphOS devleopers, who obviously won't write a driver for AmigaOS4, and of the other half, none of them remaining have Classic hardware except one.  Luckily he is a nice guy and has agreed to help out, time permitting.

The points you make have some validity, but your main argument still does not answer why the DMA hack is not supported/allowed?

It won't be done because it is a _hack_. It's ugly, it's messy, and it's not real DMA, and it doesn't DMA back to the system and would only allow a handful of other cards to work - most of which the functionality is _already_ covered and works quite fine, so the developers aren't going to do it.  I'm sorry but I've personally asked about it and they won't do it.

As we are using a CLASSIC system, then surely supporting CLASSIC hardware means supporting as much of the existing Classic Mediator hardware as possible to get the most from it.

You have to understand that resources are very limited.  If I had lots of money and lots of developers with the required hardware and skills to actually write drivers, then we would have more drivers.  The cold hard fact is that we don't and I don't see people volunteering to write more drivers for us...

Why allow the Radeon to function but dis-allow/prevent the Creative soundcards to function or the Spider USB card, or the TV card, or the faster RTL8139 NIC? It does not make any sense.

Those cards all require DMA.

We are limited enough by what cards are available for the Mediator system, and to be limited even further by the rarer sound amd NIC cards is not a plus point for Classic OS4.1, yet you seem to be singing it's praises that it's cut off the majority of cards that the Mediator supported by using the DMA hack.

Be careful with your words here, it is not the majority of cards.   Functionality _is_ available with alternate cards as I have mentioned.  Sound, Network, SATA, Graphics - it's all possible out-of-the-box.   Is it limited to specific cards? Yes.  Would I like more cards supported? Sure, but we don't have the resources (ie. time and money) to do it.  If you have several thousand dollars to hire a programmer then we could get one additional driver.

Not using a widely available soundcard which is what the ESS Solo-1 is, causes another problem for Mediator users as most opted for the more widely available Creative SB128 or similar models which are supported under the 68k Mediator PCI system drivers. So many users would have to hunt around on the internet to try to find one of these relatively obscure cards.

If you want me to get you a Solo-1 I can, as I said, they have >10 in stock at my local computer shop.  Send me a private message if you want.

But you are forgetting that most Mediator users will have the cards that have been cut off by the Classic OS4.1 not supporting/allowing the 68k DMA hack.

Again be careful with your words, how do you know "Most" users will be cut off?  Maybe YOU will be cut off, because you don't own the supported hardware, but that hardware is still available and cheap to obtain.

So they, and I'm included in that bunch, am not very happy about losing those cards functionality, and I don't hear of any replacement Mediator PCI drivers for more up-to-date PCI cards being developed, not even after 3 years of hard development work, for Classic OS4.1 to supercede/replace drivers for those type of cards in the Mediator, or are there?

I'm sorry your hardware isn't supported, but as I've said, we don't have the time or money to develop additional drivers at this time.  We've supported what we can and tried to cover all the functionality you need (Sound, Network, Graphics, Disk) out of the box.  Yes, support is limited to specific cards.   Sorry those aren't the ones you own.

Of course, I cannot know if Classic OS4.1 is a "far superior" experience, UNLESS I am prepared to spend £100, and from what you've said still doesn't fill me with joy.

I'm still stinging from the Classic Amiga OS4.0 release which as I've said was the worst Amiga Workbench experience I have EVER had, and one that even now, 3-4 years after it's release, still is putting me off.

That's a lot to do with Hyperion's lack of support for Classic OS4.0, and the poor product that was released due to the initial incompatabilities, which should have been fixed, well before it was released - sign of a hurried product released to the market place, before thorough testing had been completed properly.

Look, I'm not trying to sell you AmigaOS 4.1 Classic.  I'm just trying to point out that it does support a limited set of PCI hardware because it's not possible for Hyperion to write drivers for all the PCI cards out there.  I'm sorry but that's the reality of the market.  We support functionality people will need based on a limited set of cards.

If you think AmigaOS 4.1 Classic is not for you - then by all means do not buy it.

All I can say is myself and others have worked very hard to overcome many of the critical points against AmigaOS 4.0 Classic.  We had a limited timeline and limited budget.   We've done the best we can and I am proud of what we have accomplished - releasing a new OS for a 20 year old machines and 14 year old PPC accelerators is not easy.

PS - I was NOT really involved with AmigaOS 4.0 Classic so I can't speak for that product.

PPS - Even if the DMA hack worked, new drivers would still be required for ALL of the cards that you mention.  Elbox drivers are in 68k ASM and are not compatible with the PCI sub-system library interface of AmigaOS4.1 - they would all have to be entirely re-written.

[HammerD]

So how much RAM does Classic OS4.1 NEED to run, as a minimum?

I would of course get a SATA PCI card & HDD if I decided to buy OS4.1.

Do you know if the Squirrel SCSI device is usable under Classic OS4.1? As that would be an option to swap some of the data I have from a SCSI HDD or ZIP drive to some other HDD if required.

I'm not sure about the Squirrel.  If the driver behaves the rules and doesn't make assumptions of hardware by peeking/poking  system structures then it could work.

It's obviously not critical, BUT the fact that the faster RTL8139 device works under OS3.9 but hasn't been supported under OS4.1 means I'd have to try to source one of those cards instead of an RTL8139.

Well that card needs DMA so it won't work.  That is not going to change so you're just going to have to find a RTL8029 network card.  A 30 second google search brought one up for sale on ebay for $15 dollars:

http://cgi.ebay.com/Realtek-RTL8029AS-32-bit-PCI-w-RJ-45-10BaseT-/280470779616?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item414d5c76e0#ht_500wt_1025

But you just said, if I understand your reply correctly, that 'No' you don't know of an Amiga dealer that stocks that soundcard.

Well I haven't looked, since there is ample supply 3 KM from my house at my local corner computer store.  Maybe it would make sense for AmigaKit or other dealers to stock that card.

I checked with AmigaKit - the suppliers of Classic OS4.1 who don't have any soundcards shown on a search of their site, other than the Delfina soundcard, so that's my point. They are not readily available, even on ebay I only came across 1 listed.

So if the suppliers of Classic OS4.1 don't even have them stocked then where are all the people who want one of these soundcards going to get one from?

Well Paula still works quite well - remember all the Classic Amigas have a good built-in sound chip which is supported both in 4.0 and 4.1.  If you have a good set of speakers Paula still sounds amazing.  In my machines I often use Paula still.  So a sound card is not absolutely required.

The SOLO soundcard is obscure, and hard to get hold of, and there should have been a more readily available soundcard chosen to be usable with Classic OS4.1.

Well my offer still stands if you need one.

That's more optimistic than I've heard before, BUT after having been abandoned by Hyperion after Classic OS4.0 I'm not so sure the Blizzard SCSI driver will get its required time spent on development that will lead to a working driver for the SCSI side of the PPC cards. I'd like to be optimistic, but I feel more pessimistic right now.

Which is another justifiable reason for the Adaptec PCI SCSI cards to be supported, which it isn't/won't due to the DMA issue.

I would remind you that it is totally possible for anyone to write drivers.  The SDK is out there, there are several websites that help people with AmigaOS4 programming, and you can always E-mail Hyperion for support.   Hyperion can't write all the drivers.  

Our Warp3D Permedia2 programmer is really great and he's spent ALOT of time on the driver.  he's just terribly busy at the moment so his first priority is to finish the permedia2 driver, then he can look into the blizzard PPC scsi driver.

I appreciate you asking about supporting the DMA hack, and I'm just interested to know why you asked them about it?

I've been on the beta testing team since 2003, I directly asked Hyperion about adding the DMA hack and they won't.  If proper DMA was available it would work.  To my knowledge Elbox has not offered any source code to implment such a DMA hack, and it is in 68K asm anyway so not useful.

Since this is Elbox's hardware perhaps you should be asking them why they don't have more OS4 drivers for their hardware?  Just a thought, maybe it would help if the users demanded of Elbox more OS4.1 drivers.

OK, I think I already understood the cost side of things, limited budget and all that, but to have limited the latest Classic OS4.1 to an older/slower NIC, and a soundcard that is basic, and generally hard to come by was not a good choice.

The list of PCI cards that can work with PIO is rather limited, so we basically had no choice.

Is the chipset that's on the SOLO soundcard supported, so that any soundcard with the same chipset can be used or is it that specific design of the ESS-SOLO-1 soundcard that is supported? Basically would a Terratec 512i Digital be supported, or a HitPoint FM801 soundcard be usable under OS4.1 or not?

If they have an ESS 1969 chip then it should work.

I'm not so sure about getting Classic OS4.1 as yet, so I'll hold off on that, but thanks for the offer.

Well, up to you.  As I said it's not my job to sell it to you  I'm here for free technical support for registered users, really.

Mediator users with 68k systems, considering upgrading more than likely will have Creative soundcards, none of which work under OS4.1, and the Spider USB card is also not supported under OS4.1, and the RTL8139 NIC is also not supported, never mind the TV/FM or SCSI cards, so consider the likelihood of the number of Mediator users with one, or more, of those cards in their setups, and then consider how many users will be adversely affected - that will be MOST.

As I stated above, perhaps it's time for the users to demand of Elbox to port their drivers to OS4.1.  Hyperion can't be expected to do it all.

Who said I don't own those supported cards!

Well, good, then you won't have to buy them

So if you're still waiting on a developer to work on supporting the Blizzard SCSI device then you/Hyperion know that SCSI is important, but Classic OS4.1 won't support the Adaptec PCI SCSI option it seems, or the other PCI cards that need the DMA hack.

I've never known of any problems with the DMA hack under 68k, and with Elbox most likely to still be able to provide new compatible code for the DMA system they use, it seems Hyperion are not supporting the Mediator as well as it could be.

Well Hyperion is supporting proper DMA, which is something the Mediator lacks.  Elbox is free to develop OS4.1 drivers as well, as I've said.  In fact they did include a the FastATA driver with AmigaOS4.1 Classic.  Their resources are probably very limited as well, which is why you don't see more drivers from them.

A lack of information as to specifics of what cards are supported, or if it just the chipset or a specific manufacturers model of a card that is supported, and all the more critical factors of what you can have attached to your Classic Amiga system when using OS4.1.

If you look at the 4.0 compatibility list on Acube's site then add Radeon 9200 or 9250, the SATA PCI cards based on the Silicon Image 3112, 3114, and 3512, and the ESS Solo-1 based on the 1969 chipset, you basically have it.

I have a HyperCOM clockport card in one of my A1200s and like using it, but I'm not sure if that would be usable under Classic OS4.1. Surely more information as to which 68k based drivers will work under Classic OS4.1 should be made available.

Not sure about this, never heard of any beta tester having it.  If the drivers follow the rules it should work.

I agree with your remark, and don't get me wrong I am aware a lot of work has been put in to complete Classic OS4.1, but it's a lot of money for people who bought Classic OS4.0, and got little out of it, like me, only to then be asked to part with £100 (approx) for a x.1 update.

The level of criticism there was about the shabby level of compatibility when Classic OS4.0 was initially released was, in my opinion, justified, and is at last being addressed in OS4.1, but to ask those people who paid out for a FULL/NEW version of an Amiga OS to stump up for another FULL payment for what is basically an update is not fair.

Pricing and distribution are not decided from me.  But AmigaOS 4.1 is not just a .1 update.  It's far more than that.  It's all of 4.1's new features, plus 4.1 Update 1, Update 2, and all of the fixes we've made and specific things for the Classic, like the Radeon support, the Solo-1 support, the SATA support, memory paging support, the Warp3D Permedia2 driver, and further things planned specifically for Classic in Update 3, it's not even comparable to 4.0 Classic at all.

What does "not really involved" actually mean then. Either you did a little, something more than that, OR you did nothing at all to help in the development of Classic OS4.0, but not really involved is not a definitive position, is it?

I am a beta tester since 2003 but at the time of 4.0 development I had no Classic hardware so I didn't really pay attention to Classic nor participate directly in the beta testing.  So I knew about it but at the time I was focused on my MicroA1.

Well, Elbox are still a viable company, have they been asked to supply, and offered support, to create new drivers in-line with the PCI sub-system library interface of OS4.1?

As I stated before, they assisted us to help with PCI configuration of the Mediator and they supplied the FastATA driver.  Certainly if they wanted to (or could) provide more they could/can.

I t want you to know I'm appreciative of your time, and effort, because I am really grateful for your insights into Classic OS4.1.

Thank you, and thanks for asking the questions.  I'm just trying to defend the product, obviously, since I know it so well and worked on it so long, but ultimately it is up to you if you buy it or not.

[HammerD]

So how much RAM does Classic OS4.1 NEED to run, as a minimum?

You could _probably_ get by with 64MB by making a bare bones kicklayout, no backdrop picture ...etc...but i would not want less than 96MB.

This is assuming a graphics card and a relatively modern resolution like 1024x768 or higher.

Generally with any operating system the more ram the merrier.

[HammerD]

Small Update, I heard from Carl Moppett (one of the primary testers) that the squirrelscsi.device does work under AmigaOS 4.1 Classic.  You can either use it with a mountlist to mount a CDROM or add it as a kickstart module to kicklayout.  Sorry I don't have further details as I don't own the hardware nor an A1200, but it should work.

[HammerD]

I read your comments that the SOLO has to have the ESS 1969 chipset, but I just looked at a SOLO card on ebay, and it shows the chipset as ES1938S, so is this chipset also supported, as there is no information about only certain chipsets being viable under Classic OS4.1, just the fact that you have to have an ESS SOLO soundcard.

Please clarify the specifics of the chipset, as this seems to be a possible stumbling block.

I just asked the developer and he said the ESS 1938, 1946 and 1969 *should* work.  If not we probably just have to add the Device / vendor ID.  Which we can do.

The only card tested currently is the one with the 1969 chipset.  I don't have any of the other cards nor does anyone else on the beta/developer team.  But since those chips are in the same family it should work providing we have the device / vendor ID's.  So if you have such a card and it's recognized on the PCI bus, but not working with AHI use the Ranger utility to get the vendor / device ID and I'll pass the info to the developer and we'll update it.

[HammerD]

Well has the ESS chipsets 1938 & 1946 SOLO cards been tested to see if they work with Classic OS 4.1?

I mean, how can this Classic OS 4.1 be released with the announcement that the SOLO card is supported, when just one of the chipsets is supported without being more specific.

More testing should have been done, or more specific information should have been released before the announcement that the SOLO soundcard works with Classic OS4.1, I mean it's just misleading, yet again.



Still waiting for the update?

There does not seem to be much going on with Classic OS4.1, and there seems to be little information being divluged by people who might have bought Classic OS4.1 prepared to sing it's praises, which in itself is not inspiring.

Great !! AmigaKit have got RTL8029AS NIC PCI cards, but what about the 'supported' SOLO cards, and the 'supported' SATA cards?

After all, those who want to add the latest features of Classic OS4.1 will also need the hardware to be able to use it. Seems we've been waiting a good while for Classic OS4.1, and in all that time the main stockist of the software doesn't/hasn't even thought through, or acquired the hardware to sell to people who'd be interested in supporting the OS by buying it. It's all a mess, that should have been avoided by better planning.

Any comment AmigaKit?

Hi Nearly Right, lots going on but just not in the Amiga.org forum.  Expect further announcements from Hyperion.  I have a report from one user that his ESS Solo-1 card with the 1938 chipset is working. I have two different cards here with the 1969 chipset - both working.   BUT - as for the Solo-1 cards, and other PCI cards, such as the Radeon cards,  there are 100's of variants of these cards out there and there is no possible way for us to support or test all of them.

I'm afraid you'll just have to purchase a card that is on the hardware compatibility list (which is on my website), and even then, unless you purchase the exact card that was tested, it may not work.  Since AmigaKit is now starting to stock compatible cards, that is probably the best place to look.

http://www.hd-zone.com is my site with an unofficial hardware compatibility list.

Darren

[HammerD]

OK, here is the list of some of the AmigaOS 4.1 Classic supported hardware we have in stock right now:

SATA 4-Port Raid card for Mediator
10Mbps PCI Network Card (Mediator)
Radeon 9250 PCI 128MB Graphics Card
Subway USB

We sold out of 128MB Memory last week, but it will be back in stock in a few days.

Good stuff, i've updated my site with the info - see my signature

[HammerD]

Except when a crash is hard enough and that grimreaper will fail or crash itself as a consequence (and it happens quite frequently, from what i've seen of  various unstable apps). So having a robust log service (on serial port/whatever) with proper information is much more reliable.

I can usually write serial logs at 56700bps no problem...out the serial port to another machine, but 115200bps sometimes gets some errors from the 4000.   But most of the characters come across OK.  If I want a 100% error free debug log I use 56700, otherwise 115200 with the occasional garbled text is ok.

In beta testing and development it is normal to run with a Debuglevel=5  so you can always see what is going on.

[HammerD]

BTW, Hyperion just opened official support forums:

Article about it here:

http://www.hd-zone.com/2011/06/hyperion-opens-official-support-forums/

[HammerD]

Now that's about time, but I'm surely appreciative also

I've got a feeling some pestering to Hyperion has been going on, maybe by you Darren? If so, I'm doubly grateful

Actually the Forums were not my idea - credit Hyperion, Hans-Joerg Frieden, and Steven Solie for that.  It's part of the wider strategy to improve communications with the user base.

I did do some poking and prodding to get them up relatively quickly, though

Since you are a owner of AmigaOS 4.0 Classic you should register.

Darren