Philosophical Question - Amiguing

[nicholas]

I actually think this will turn out to not be true.
 
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19422430
 
Having one or the other is like people generally only having one hair colour.
 
While god might have triggered the big bang, none of the large organised religions have dared throw away all their theories about how the universe was created in light of scientific evidence. Instead they have spent a long time trying to disprove science to show that their god exists (which is a logical fallacy but hey).
 
Science cannot disprove the possibility of a god, it can only blow huge holes in religious texts written by man. As the writers god is supposed to have been heavily involved in the creation of those texts then they were either deluded, liars or their god is a practical joker. You could argue that there has been misinterpretation, but I cannot believe that a god that influenced the writing of religion texts would have allowed that to happen.
 
But there could be a god that hasn't influenced any religions that created the visible universe. However this opens up even more questions than it answers as you then have to consider what else is there outside the visible universe. So while god might be the actual answer, it's a rather farfetched and inconvenient one (unless you are into blind faith or you're the one manipulating the masses).

So much false assumption and BS in one post it could win an award.

It's blatantly obvious you have never spoken at length about this subject with an actual scholar of Islam (An Ayatollah for instance) otherwise you wouldn't have made your incorrect sweeping generalisations.

I've discussed this subject in great detail in the past right here on this very forum and so have some of the other Muslim members, so I'm not about to repeat myself again but refer you to the search function if you actually are interested in having your ignorance of our beliefs corrected.

Plus it is extremely off topic for this thread.

[nicholas]

Actually, I have no problem with the Big Bang being the mode of creation.
"Let there be light", boom.
Yep, that works for me.
And I also don't have a problem with evolution being yet another mode of creation.
One that, instead of lasting only seven days, continues indefinitely.
Also, when you study biology, you see some weird jumps from one species to it descendants.
For instance, there is no intermediate structure between hair and feathers.
You have one or the other.

Evolution of the species and natural selection observed and documented by Shi'a Muslim scholar Nasir al-Din al-Tusi 800 years before Darwin "discovered" it.

Scroll down to the Biology section.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nasir_al-Din_al-Tusi#Achievements

[nicholas]

A lot of animals have unique capabilities beyond those of humans. They may not be able to converse in abstract concept, but then again, who decided that that was such a remarkable ability? That's right, we did that ourselves. In a world guided by simple morals, we use those concepts that distinguish us from everyone else as an absolute measure of worth to rationalize our belief of superiority. This not only goes for animals, but for other cultures and human ethnicities as well.

+1

Amen to that!

[nicholas]

There is a difference between being ignorant of someone's beliefs and not believing in them.

You said:

Originally Posted by psxphill
While god might have triggered the big bang, none of the large organised religions have dared throw away all their theories about how the universe was created in light of scientific evidence.

Islam is one of the "large organised religions" so your sweeping statement includes Islam and what you said is wrong, so yes you are ignorant of what we believe.

As I stated in my previous post I have discussed this at length as have some of the other Muslim members here (One of them being an actual bona-fide scientist educated at Oxford to Masters level) so I am not going to repeat myself for you.  Use the forum search function if you are genuinely interested in correcting your ignorance, but I find it hard to believe you are.

I will not discuss it further here for the reason stated above and the fact that it is completely off topic.

بسم الله الرحمن الرحيم
قُلْ يَا أَيُّهَا الْكَافِرُونَ
لَا أَعْبُدُ مَا تَعْبُدُونَ
وَلَا أَنْتُمْ عَابِدُونَ مَا أَعْبُدُ
وَلَا أَنَا عَابِدٌ مَا عَبَدْتُمْ
وَلَا أَنْتُمْ عَابِدُونَ مَا أَعْبُدُ
لَكُمْ دِينُكُمْ وَلِيَ دِينِ

[nicholas]

"In the name of God the Merciful
Say O disbelievers
I do not worship what you worship
Nor do you worship what I worship
I Abed not served
Nor do you worship what I worship
Your religion and I have mine"

Courtesy of Google Translate.

Almost.

In the name of God, most gracious, most merciful
Say (Oh Muhammad): "O unbelievers!
I do not serve that which you serve,
Nor do you serve Him whom I serve:
Nor am I going to serve that which you serve,
Nor are you going to serve Him whom I serve:
So to you your way and to me mine"

Emphasis mine.

[nicholas]

The Arabic word 'ayyam' does not mean 'days', not even close, look it up in any respected Arabic lexicon.

As I said, you have no desire to learn anything about authentic Islam.

I could point you in the direction of an actual scholar who you could put your questions to but you aren't seriously interested so why should I bother.

To you your way and to me mine.

[nicholas]

Why should a day of the gods be a day from the human perspective? The Hindus count such time scales very differently: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hindu_cosmology

+1

To keep it off topic, a subject that interests me is the theory that Brahma and his consort Saraswati are in fact Abraham (pbuh) and his wife Sarah.

[nicholas]

I'm not sure Humans do have the ability to control their own destiny... We perhaps have the potential to do so, but really we are mostly just slaves to the common animal functions of eating and trying to reproduce... And then patting ourselves on the back and marvelling at how easy we have made it to do these things.

Very well put Matt, I think the main difference between homo-sapien sapien and the other animals is mans arrogance.

I mean just look at the name we gave ourselves, so arrogant we called our species wise and then once more just to stress the point.

Regarding controlling our own destiny, a man once asked Imam Ali (pbuh) how much free will we possess. He told the man "Stand on one leg", he did as he was told and then the Imam said "Now lift the other leg".

[nicholas]

He didn't need to give us anything. The exact length of time it took to create the Universe isn't really important to how one lives one's life.

Ima quote Philo of Alexandria (c. 20 BCE – c. 50 CE):

By "six days" Moses does not indicate a space of time in which      the world was made, but the principles of order and productivity      which governed its making

But you don't actually care what it means, it is convenient to take it literally so that you can ridicule it. Taking things literally wasn't invented until about the 18th century I think.

My son will be five next month and he takes everything literally. He has a medical excuse though.

Speaking of the 18th century disease of literalism, one only has to look at the Wahabbis in Occupied Hijaz and the American Rapturists who both believe that every Muslim/Christian that came before them for the previous millennia are heretics.

[nicholas]

Just to be clear:
Philo of Alexandria was quoting a completely different book.  He wasn't talking about the Koran or Haddiths but the Hebrew Bible.

The Hebrew Bible (the Jewish religion) says literally "6 time periods" and ppl (usually atheists) "just assume" that it means "6 days" because "you know, its like obvious".

In fact "time period" can mean anything, a billion years, a million years.  Or if you are a Star Wars fan it can even mean a unit of distance like 7 parsecs.

As does The Qur'an (Not Koran!) hence the following:

"[SIZE=-1]He hath revealed unto thee (Muhammad) the Scripture with  truth, confirming that which was (revealed) before it, even as He  revealed the Torah and the Gospel." - Al-Qur'an 3:3
"[/SIZE][SIZE=-1]And (I come) confirming that which was before me of the  Torah, and to make lawful some of that which was forbidden unto you. I  come unto you with a sign from your Lord, so keep your duty to Allah and  obey me." - Al-Qur'an 3:50
"[/SIZE][SIZE=-1]And We caused Jesus, son of Mary, to follow in their  footsteps, confirming that which was (revealed) before him in the Torah,  and We bestowed on him the Gospel wherein is guidance and a light,  confirming that which was (revealed) before it in the Torah - a guidance  and an admonition unto those who ward off (evil)." - Al-Qur'an 5:46

There are many more verses in a similar vein, so I think you get the picture.
[/SIZE]

[nicholas]

@EDanaII

I believe that the very thing that sets us apart from all other creatures on this planet obligates us to become caretakers of this world.

That's the Islamic doctrine in a nutshell.

Asalaamu alaykum dear brother!

[nicholas]

@ Nicholas:

Somehow, I don't think that's just a Islamic doctrine. I suspect it's embraced by many. At least, I sure hope it is.

Oh of course, I just wanted to stress the point that's all.

It is written many times in the Qur'an and also narrated in the traditions of Prophet Muhammad(pbuh&hf) and his legitimate successors (The 12 Imams) that man was placed on Earth purely as it's vice-regent with the sole task of taking care of it.

[nicholas]

I think we have a moral obligation to take care of it & religion is a good vehicle for applying moral values to people.
 
But I don't believe that man was placed on earth as our evolution was based on sexual partner selection of other species and god doesn't control what we do.

What makes you think Islam is at odds with natural selection?

[nicholas]

Are you saying your god just kept tinkering until he got something that he liked the look of and then stopped?
i.e. killed off people that looked funny with a landslide or something until the correct couples mated?

I've already posted a link previously in this thread to the wiki entry on the Shi'a Scholar Nasir al-Din al-Tusi who "discovered" the theory of Natural Selection 800yrs before Darwin claimed it as his own.

You are blinded by your own ignorance and I really don't know why I'm bothering to carry on talking to you.

[nicholas]

Throwing insults means you lose. Why be hateful?

I wasn't aware that correcting your wrong assumptions about Islam is considered "throwing insults".

You know that I don't believe in any religion invented by man and never will

Neither do I.

, no matter how long it's been going on or what their religious texts say. I understand that I can't change your mind & I don't particularly want to.

I don't want to convert you to Islam either.  Even if I did it's not up to me but The One.

However,  you have made several incorrect assumptions about authentic Islam and when people do this I will always correct them.  I'm not trying to convince you what I believe is true, but correct your assumptions about what I believe.

I think it's important to have things you believe in and I wouldn't want to take that from you even if I could. However I do enjoy finding out about other peoples viewpoints.

Glad to hear it and ditto.
 

Saying who came up with the theory of evolution doesn't answer my question. How did God influence our natural selection

Why does it matter how He did or did not do it? The facts are it does happen and is still happening today. Evolution has not stopped.

I'm a Shi'a so this is a particularly important part of my theology, in that my Imam(pbuh) and Jesus(pbuh) will not return until the Shi'a have evolved to a much different state than we are currently in. Be that spiritual, physical or both.

, did he aim for us or were we a mistake & how does it tie up with the Quran?

Adam(pbuh) (The famous one) was not the first hominid on this earth, not even close to being the first.  There are narrations that state something along the lines of 50,000 species of Adams came before he did.

If you can't have a civil conversation then there is no point.
I found this http://thedistortedreligion.wordpress.com/2010/06/27/the-quranic-concept-of-evolution-part-i-natural-selection-or-divine-will/ which kinda actually says that while the Quran says that evolution happened, it wasn't natural selection as it was god that controlled the process. I don't know how accurate the site is (it appears to be written by an atheist anyway), but if it's true then I would like to know how god did that.

I've given that site a quick look over and it appears to be written by someone who follows a relatively modern cult known by various names but usually Quran Aloner's or 19ers.  They believe in a new "prophet" called Rashad Khalifa and that all Muslims before them are infidels.  Not unlike the Wahabbi cult currently occupying Hijaz (It's not Saudi Arabia and never will be)

I feel like I shouldn't have to state this but the Qur'an is a book of theology and ethics not a peer-reviewed scientific journal.  It is a book of inctructions on how to live ones life and also contains historical records.

Also, the Qur'an is nothing without explanation of it's verses.  Those qualified to explain it's verses are the immediate blood family of Prophet Muhammad and no one else.  Particularly not random cultists and wahabbis on the interwebs.

http://al-islam.org
http://en.rafed.net/islamic-books-magazine

[nicholas]

Thanks Nik,
I don't have any problem reconciling religion with natural selection either.
Apparently I now have to accept the weight of a lot of other believers with rigid interpretations.

Rigid thinking does nobody any good.

I truly am worried sick about my son when he's an adult and I'm no longer around as I think his inability to see things from anyone else's POV will severely hamper him and make him very vulnerable.