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Offline Frodon

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Re: Midgets go to War - Genesi sues Amiga Inc.
« on: February 04, 2003, 06:07:02 PM »
Hello,

Quote
Correct me if i'm wrong, but i think the illegal code was deleted and rewritten by the MOS team.


Indeed you are wrong. There was never any illegal code. Anyone stating the contrary is spreading FUD (until he provide valid evidences).
The only real problem was just that in the early version of MorphOS, AmigaOS was needed because there were no replacements of all the AmigaOS components necessary to run the AmigaOS softwares at this time.

And the AmigaOS 3.5+ End User Licence Agreement have something stipulating that it's not allowed to run AmigaOS on a non "Amiga certified" hardware (so like the Pegasos).

So it'd have been a problem if MOS where sold and still need AmigaOS as legally speaking it'd have needed for the user to "illegally" use AmigaOS as it'd have breach the End User License Agreement (because the Pegasos is not an Amiga certified hardware).

That's why the MorphOS Team have written replacements of every necessary components (with the graceful help of the AROS Team which let the MOS Team use the AROS elements). And so that's why MorphOS is perfectly legal even on the Pegasos now ;)

Regards
Frodo Baggins

Fleecy Moss, Aug 1999: \\"You may have bought the name Amiga, but the community is something you have to earn. AInc have never understood that, and now there is another company\\"
 

Offline Frodon

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Re: Midgets go to War - Genesi sues Amiga Inc.
« Reply #1 on: February 04, 2003, 06:55:33 PM »
Hello,

Quote
that two companies go to court before releasing anything at all.


Well so why I have friends who bought a Pegasos at a reseller recently? I don't call that anything at all.

Regards
Frodo Baggins

Fleecy Moss, Aug 1999: \\"You may have bought the name Amiga, but the community is something you have to earn. AInc have never understood that, and now there is another company\\"
 

Offline Frodon

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Re: Midgets go to War - Genesi sues Amiga Inc.
« Reply #2 on: February 04, 2003, 10:33:27 PM »
Hello,

Quote
It's plain to see that Amiga code was used.
They can say that they didn't use it if they wish, but I know better than that.


Well, let's check that. Have you ever developped APIs compatible with other OS APIs using just public documentation? Considering what you said, I doubt a lot you've ever tried.
To give a concrete example which is outside our Amiga world, that's what the OpenBeOS Team is actually doing to be compatible with BeOS, and guess what, it looks exactly like BeOS! In fact when it'll be finish it'll be very hard to see the difference between OpenBeOS and BeOS. But they just used the public developper documentations (this include the OS public includes, the BeOS Bible...etc) and don't use at all any part of the BeOS code.

If you had just searched a bit over the net OSes API compatible with others you'd see it's totally possible to make an OS that just work like another one without using any original code and just the documentation (OpenBeOS, BlueEyed OS,  others BeOS compatible projects, AROS and of course MorphOS).

For me it's obvious that by saying that "It's plain to see that Amiga code was used." show clearly that you have no clue the technical aspect.
You know that's not because MorphOS or AROS looks like AmigaOS that they have used AmigaOS code. Just like OpenBeOS elements which just looks like the real BeOS but have been rewritten without any part of the BeOS code.

In a nutshell, it's not possible to say just by looking at an OS if it has used code of another one. What I know personnaly is that OpenBeOS didn't use any original BeOS code and AFAIK this is also the case of AROS and MorphOS. At least I know it's perfectly possible to make an OS compatible with another without using any part of the original OS code. And I don't see why it'd not be the case for MorphOS and AROS (particularly considering that AmigaOS is extremely well documented and the time of development (AROS has started years ago and MorphOS has been faster because the MOS Team can use the work already done by the AROS Team).

Regards
Frodo Baggins

Fleecy Moss, Aug 1999: \\"You may have bought the name Amiga, but the community is something you have to earn. AInc have never understood that, and now there is another company\\"
 

Offline Frodon

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Re: Midgets Go to War: Genesi sues Amiga Inc.
« Reply #3 on: February 05, 2003, 02:03:19 AM »
Hello,

Quote
Frodo, bbrv, and the clown have infiltrated the community.


Well don't judge people when you don't know them! I've never "infiltrated" this community.
I'm an Amiga user since 1988. So I'm in this community for a long time now.

I just don't have the same opinion than you. If you want us (people who don't have the same opinion than you) to respect your opinion, please respect us too.
As far as I can remember, I've always respected your opinion for now, so please respect that some Amiga users prefer the Pegasos/MorphOS solution for the Amiga future than the official one. That doesn't make them in any ways "infiltrators".

We've to live together, you can't change that, and for that we've to respect each others. So please do so.

Regards
Frodo Baggins

Fleecy Moss, Aug 1999: \\"You may have bought the name Amiga, but the community is something you have to earn. AInc have never understood that, and now there is another company\\"
 

Offline Frodon

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Re: Midgets Go to War: Genesi sues Amiga Inc.
« Reply #4 on: February 05, 2003, 02:27:46 AM »
Hello Mountain_Myst,

Ok no prob.

Quote
And I see the Genesi side as a grave danger.


Well depends what you mean by "danger".
Personnaly I think that if Genesi can offer us a great future, why not considering their solution?
IMHO limiting the vision of the Amiga future just to the official solution would let less chance for the "Amiga" (I mean more spiritualy speaking, this is what I've always loved in the Amiga, the spirit of the OS and also in the community) to survive.

Btw please note that I've never said that AmigaOne/AmigaOS 4 is not a good solution. I just say it's not the only one and therefore I don't just only consider it. Time will tell if this solution will be great or not also. And I'm not ignoring it at all.
But for now I can't see the quality of this solution as AmigaOS 4 is not available yet. That's all.

And when me or some others defend MorphOS it's just, at least for me, to avoid misinformation, FUD or other stuffs like this to be spread. When I say that MorphOS doesn't use any part of the AmigaOS code, I say it because I know that they've used the AROS work to make compatible APIs + their own work to enhance them and I know that AROS have been developped just using the documentations available publicly.
I also know that AmigaOS is very well documented and so that what the AROS Team and then the MOS Team have done is perfectly possible without breaking any laws or IP.

To conclude, I am open to every solution and when me or someone else defend MorphOS, it is nothing against anyone or anything, it's just to prevent misinformation about MorphOS. And that does not at all (at least for me) imply that we are against AmigaOS 4. Personnally I want to see it working before making my opinion on it. So for now I've an opinion on MorphOS because I can use it and so I know it. On the contrary I don't know AmigaOS 4 very much as I can't use it for now so I can't make my opinion about it.

Regards
Frodo Baggins

Fleecy Moss, Aug 1999: \\"You may have bought the name Amiga, but the community is something you have to earn. AInc have never understood that, and now there is another company\\"
 

Offline Frodon

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Re: Midgets Go to War: Genesi sues Amiga Inc.
« Reply #5 on: February 05, 2003, 06:28:42 AM »
Hello,

Quote
I've said it before and will again.... If you want pegasos and morphos, go to it... have it... leave Amiga the f_ck alone and make morphos grow on it's own merits... But aparently it doesn't have anything of its own to make it suceed without ripping the official AmigaOS completely apart.

And yes, it does make them infiltrators when they come into every last Amiga forum trying to become the dominant OS of the forum and push the others out!  And don't say you people are not trying to push the official AmigaOS out, because you are.


Well but there is obvious reasons for that:

1) MorphOS users / actors are from the Amiga community

2) News website are speaking about Pegasos / MorphOS in their news

3) Even non MorphOS users are speaking about it on the news / forum website

So at least Amiga.org or ANN are not anymore "Amiga(R) only" website, they are Amiga community websites. And today the community is composed by Amiga(R)/AmigaOS users, Amithlon/AmigaOS users, UAE/AmigaOS users, AROS users and Pegasos or Amiga(R) with MorphOS users.

Again you can't change that, even if you want it. And as soon as there'll be people speaking about MorphOS and people that may spread misinformation about it, I and some others will answer to avoid the misinformations.

I don't see any problems with that. You may not like the today diversity of the community, but that's the today situation. But sadly or not, you've to live with it.
Just like in the world you've to live with lot of different people with lot of different origins.

You may don't like that, but you can't change the situation.

Regards
Frodo Baggins

Fleecy Moss, Aug 1999: \\"You may have bought the name Amiga, but the community is something you have to earn. AInc have never understood that, and now there is another company\\"
 

Offline Frodon

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Re: Midgets Go to War: Genesi sues Amiga Inc.
« Reply #6 on: February 05, 2003, 07:36:02 AM »
Hello,

Quote
1)  So what if MOS users come from Win32 land?  So Win32 is MOS because of that?  Nonsense.


??? Did I ever or someone else said that AmigaOS is MorphOS?
I agree it is not. MorphOS is just Amiga related and AmigaOS related because it is compatible with the AmigaOS 3.x (source and binary) but of course it is not the AmigaOS.

Quote
2) And again - how is that making it Amiga material?

3)  ROFL - these are even valid reasons.

There is no argument that makes MOS more special to amigaland than any other OS.


MOS is an product made my Amiga developers (so members of the Amiga community) and is compatible with AmigaOS 3.x.
AROS is Amiga related, it's "an attempt to build from scratch an AmigaOS 3.1 clone" (quote from: http://www.ahsodit.com/aros/index.html). Then why MorphOS would not be Amiga related? MorphOS has also compatible APIs just like AROS and it is even binary compatible with AmigaOS 3.x software. That's why it's an Amiga related solution (not the trademark but the community, the spirit).

That make it more special to "amigaland". And as Amiga.org (and ANN) is a website about any Amiga related things, MorphOS has its place just like AROS or Amithlon have their place too. The webmaster of this site have already stated on that.

Regards
Frodo Baggins

Fleecy Moss, Aug 1999: \\"You may have bought the name Amiga, but the community is something you have to earn. AInc have never understood that, and now there is another company\\"
 

Offline Frodon

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Re: Midgets Go to War: Genesi sues Amiga Inc.
« Reply #7 on: February 05, 2003, 07:42:06 AM »
Hello,

"The only thing I know for sure is that it's not AmigaOS but it still can run AmigaOS software much like ShapeShifter can run MacOS software. That doesn't make Pegasos any more an Amiga than ShapeShifter makes an Amiga a Mac."

No, ShapeShifter emulate in some way how works a real Macintosh and don't use its own compatible APIs to run MacOS software.
MorphOS use its own APIs that are compatible with the AmigaOS 3.x APIs. You see it's not working the same way. It's more like AROS.

So yes MorphOS is not more Amiga related than AROS, but not less. As its AmigaOS 3.x compatibility work similarly to AROS. It use compatible APIs just like AROS (+ a 68k emulator for the 68k binary compatibility). So MorphOS is not more not less Amiga related than AROS.
After it depends on how Amiga related you find AROS to be...

But respect people that think that MorphOS is a valid solution for the future of the Amiga as they know it and like it. You can't think for the others, they have their opinion, you should respect it.

Regards
Frodo Baggins

Fleecy Moss, Aug 1999: \\"You may have bought the name Amiga, but the community is something you have to earn. AInc have never understood that, and now there is another company\\"
 

Offline Frodon

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Re: Midgets Go to War: Genesi sues Amiga Inc.
« Reply #8 on: February 05, 2003, 04:23:33 PM »
Hello,

Quote
But the one thing that "Amiga(R)/AmigaOS users, Amithlon/AmigaOS users, UAE/AmigaOS users" all have in common is that they are running AmigaOS.... The real OS not a ripoff.


So according to you AROS is also not Amiga related? As it also use its own APIs to be source compatible (and binary compatible on 68k machines) with AmigaOS?

If yes, then thanks for your huge respect of the work made by the AROS Team to bring us a source compatible OS by developping compatible APIs. They've worked for years to make AROS possible. And saying that just because it's not using real AmigaOS APIs but rewritten one make it not Amiga related is a bit hard for the hard work made by the developpers.

Ok You didn't say that. But as you say it for MorphOS and as AROS has also its own APIs just like MorphOS and so don't use AmigaOS, I'd guess you'd say the same for AROS. Or you are not coherent.

Regards
Frodo Baggins

Fleecy Moss, Aug 1999: \\"You may have bought the name Amiga, but the community is something you have to earn. AInc have never understood that, and now there is another company\\"
 

Offline Frodon

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Re: Midgets Go to War: Genesi sues Amiga Inc.
« Reply #9 on: February 05, 2003, 05:52:53 PM »
Hello,

Quote
I guess you have to ask yourself, do you think that if Genesi had made an 'Operating System' (Morph XP) that looked and worked exactly like Windows XP and ran all Windows software or an 'Operating System' (Morph Mac) that looked and worked exactly like Mac OS and ran all Mac OS software that a court of law wouldn't think this was infringing on the rights of Microsoft or Apple?  I think a court might even side with Microsoft on that.  Just because Amiga Inc. is a lot smaller and most people have never heard of Amiga OS doesn't make it anymore legal to do the above.  I think there is a reason no other company makes a ?Windows Compatible? OS.


Why do you think M$ didn't tried to sue Lindows about its compatibility with Windows and rather just about his name? (and even with that he lost ;) )
I help you, simply because they'd have lost and they know that. Even if Lindows look a bit like Windows and run a lot of Windows apps.

Quote
I?m sure some company would love to sell a product for half the price of Windows XP that looks and feels exactly like Windows and runs the entire existing catalog of Microsoft Windows software, but I think they know they would probably have no legal ground to stand on.


Well in fact it exists already ;) It doesn't look like Win XP but more like Win 2k but not exactly. It can run Win apps Btw and I mention it just before ;) Yes I'm speaking of Lindows ;) And for the legal aspect see my answer above :)

Btw MorphOS don't look exactly like AmigaOS 3.x. It has similarities bu it also has lot of differencies and new stuffs.
Additionally, the interface is themable if you want to make it look exactly like AmigaOS you can, just like you can do it on Win XP or MacOS X using themes.

But MorphOS has its own look & feel even if an Amiga user will indeed recognize some similarities with AmigaOS, it has not the exact same look & feel. In fact its look is just more modern ;)

Regards
Frodo Baggins

Fleecy Moss, Aug 1999: \\"You may have bought the name Amiga, but the community is something you have to earn. AInc have never understood that, and now there is another company\\"
 

Offline Frodon

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Re: Midgets Go to War: Genesi sues Amiga Inc.
« Reply #10 on: February 05, 2003, 06:23:45 PM »
Hello,

"There are laws in the U.S.  (or that's what I've heard anyway) to protect people from having there software ripped off .  At least I think it would be pretty unfair for someone to rip off Mac OS and then force Apple to close it doors, but then again I have morals unlike some."

You clearly misunderstood the case here.
Thendic have a contract about the AmigaDE that allow us to ask a port of the AmigaDE for their products (AFAIK).

According to what I understood, Thendic had asked a port to Amiga Inc for the Pegasos/MorphOS not so far away in the time. I can believe that as I remember Bill Buck to ask people opinion about a MorphOS port of AmigaDE in public (here and/or on ANN).
But it seems that Amiga Inc have refused and so breach the contract they signed with Thendic. That's why they sue them to have this contract respected.

This is justice, nothing more. Business justice yes, but justice anyway.

Regards
Frodo Baggins

Fleecy Moss, Aug 1999: \\"You may have bought the name Amiga, but the community is something you have to earn. AInc have never understood that, and now there is another company\\"
 

Offline Frodon

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Re: Midgets Go to War: Genesi sues Amiga Inc.
« Reply #11 on: February 06, 2003, 10:01:06 AM »
Hello,

Quote
Here's what I don't understand.
Maybe someone can help me here.

How can someone build a compatible API without getting information from the origional source code?


No I'll try to explain this more practically below.

Quote
And if you build api's that act exactly like the origional enviornment, then you would have to write it the same way, although you would extend it further.

And the available documentation that you speak of also would have to be source code.

Correct?

So no matter how you say it, it always comes back to the origional source code.

If you're going to emulate the Amiga OS and extend it, you're gonna have to do it with the origional source code.

Correct?

What other documentation would there be that would even start to help that is not source code?

Doesn't make sense to me.


Well what do you have in an API documentation generally:

You have the API prototypes, example for a function:

int toto (char* titi, int ta);

Than you have explaination so the programmer understand how to use the function and what it does exactly:

Ex: The toto function is a function to pass a message to titi and tell if this is the final message (ta=1 if yes, 0 if not).

It return 1 if the message have been received by titi, 0 if not.


Ok this is a very simple example. Then you the only thing you have to take care when you want to recreate this function is that your recreated function takes the same arguments, do the same job (send a message to titi and tell him it's the last one, as well as check if he received it) and return the same value (1 if titi received the message, 0 if not).

In a nutshell you have to do the same work that have been done by the original engineer of the function when he created it. That is to say, you have to reinvent it.

That's what have done the AROS Team and that what have done the MOS Team (with the help of the already done work of the AROS Team).

I hope this help you to understand better (even if the example is very simple ;) )

Regards
Frodo Baggins

Fleecy Moss, Aug 1999: \\"You may have bought the name Amiga, but the community is something you have to earn. AInc have never understood that, and now there is another company\\"
 

Offline Frodon

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Re: Midgets go to War - Genesi sues Amiga Inc.
« Reply #12 on: February 06, 2003, 10:14:35 AM »
Hello Wacoon,

Just a little remark. Open your eyes! This is how the world is progressing!
Using ideas of the past and improve them.

Do you want people to always reinvent everything? What alternative to a wheel would you invent if you don't allow people to use the wheel idea?

Personnaly I'm european, here we don't have software patents and lot of people don't want them. I'm particularly supporting the no software patents campaign by EuroLinux (http://petition.eurolinux.org/) as I think it's something that can stop the innovation.

How can you innovate if you always have to reinvent something different for doing the same thing (what about when you can't do it differently?) for everything protected by a software patent? If you can't concentrate only on new innovating stuff because you have to concentrate to invent stuff that do what old protected stuff already do, it's not very good.

I personnally think that the world can only progress significantly by sharing the ideas and concepts invented. Because I think that there is always someone that can use your ideas and concepts to create something new or improve your invention.

Ok this is just a matter of opinion. This is very polemistic subject and I won't blame anyone who don't have the same opinion than me. You are free to think what you want :) This was just MY opinion ;)

Regards
Frodo Baggins

Fleecy Moss, Aug 1999: \\"You may have bought the name Amiga, but the community is something you have to earn. AInc have never understood that, and now there is another company\\"
 

Offline Frodon

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Re: Midgets go to War - Genesi sues Amiga Inc.
« Reply #13 on: February 07, 2003, 12:44:00 AM »
Hello Waccoon,

Ok you seem to have understood nothing of what I said. Never mind, I'll not waste my time any longer to re-explain.

I'm a bit tired to explain things to people and see people completely misinterprete what I explain (which seem to be something quite often in this community :( ). So I will not waste my time any longer.

I just hope that some people understood correctly, so that I didn't completely wasted my time. For the others, never mind.

Regards
Frodo Baggins

Fleecy Moss, Aug 1999: \\"You may have bought the name Amiga, but the community is something you have to earn. AInc have never understood that, and now there is another company\\"