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Re: The ultimate Amiga One (what it should be)
« on: June 01, 2004, 03:54:51 PM »
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Well... Wasn't Commodore looking at HP-PA RISC?


That was for the Hombre, not the Amiga and then only as a 3D accellerator.

The Hombre would not have been compatible with the Amiga, in fact the plan was to run Windows NT!

Windows NT???  Yes, many decisions in the later year years of Commodore were downright stupid (i.e. cancelling the A3000+).
 

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Re: The ultimate Amiga One (what it should be)
« Reply #1 on: June 02, 2004, 03:47:09 PM »
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The OS or the applications? Almost anything works better than Windows on x86, and Linux on x86 is pretty damn fast for its purposes.


It's interesting that some of AMDs SPEC marks are different depending on the OS used, it's not a big difference (<10%) but this is on a test suite in which your OS will only take around 1% of the processing power.

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No way. I've been wanting a CPU independent programming language ever since I saw how fast AMOS was compared to pure assembly


How did you measure this?
Good pure assembly is very difficult to write these days.

There are plenty of CPU independant languages out there BTW: Perl, Python, Squeak etc.

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I base my conclusion that PowerPC is a bad idea not because it's technically inferior and x86 is just better, it's because x86 is a more stable market. Windows machines can't defect to PowerPC overnight, so you have to think about what 95% of the industry is going to do when x86 goes belly-up.


The problem is if you try to get into the x86 market with Eyetech or Genesi's volumes you'll have zero sales due to the price difference.

So, you drop the hardware and do an OS only.  This puts you up against Microsoft:  Game over.

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Intel may have used AMD's documentation to develop the EM64T for compatibility reasons but that doesn't mean they "adopted" anything.


Intel have their own 64 bit CPUs in the Itanium, they could have designed their own 64 bit extensions to the x86 ISA but didn't, they used AMDs instead.

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Amiga is dead, there is no room for innovation any more and no possible way it would ever compete.


Sure there is, you just have the imagination to do it and know not to target the existing desktop market.

Read up on Sony's Cell architecture, there's nothing like that anywhere right now.  It is truly revolutionary.
It's not just a new chip either, it's an entire dristributed parallel processing architecture for both software and hardware.

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The industry was ripe for such a venture at that time. It is not now, not without billions of dollars available.


Depends what you build, nobody would build a completely custom system from scratch in this day an age.

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All the leading players however are doing what Hi-Torro did, designing custom chips (for example, ATi, NVidia, Sony). Those that don't fall behind very quickly (Nintendo for example).


I wouldn't say ATI or Nvidia make custom chips as custom means it's done for one customer.  ATI and Nvidia do commodity graphics parts but they do design them themselves.  That wasn't so difficult in the A1000's days, these days an average custom chip costs $15,000,000 to develop - ATI & Nvidia's chips are costing something like $400,000,000 to develop.

Nintendo and Microsoft didn't even attempt to do their own chips, both are using modified parts from ATI.

Sony can do what they want and not only develop their own chips (actally co-develop with Toshiba and IBM) but are building their own fabs to make them in - at $2 billion each.

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PPC's only hope is IBM, and will need Apple to help get PPC CPUs into computers in a wide enough scale.


What about Nintendo, Sony and Microsoft?  They are all planning to use PowerPC.


BTW, to those who don't believe there's any innovation left go read "The future of computing" series I wrote: links here - Warning, long!

My next article has a similar theme but describes how to build a new platform using technology which is either already available or will be soon.  The idea is to combine multiple technologies in a single box to create something completely new.

The A1000 did pretty much the same, the custom chips were an evolution from Jay Miner's previous work at Atari, multitasking existed before, so did the GUI, so did the 68K.  Nobody had put them all together before the A1000 and it took the rest of the industry years to catch up.
 

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Re: The ultimate Amiga One (what it should be)
« Reply #2 on: June 03, 2004, 03:06:54 PM »
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Any good references on Cell? I'm still confused as to whether the Cell chip does graphics or if it's just a muticored CPU. Most of the stuff I find on Cell is just hype.


The cell is an entire system, mode up of processing elements called "cells" which can be in anything from PDAs to servers.  The system puts computations into to a "software-cell" which can run an a hardware cell.

The cell hardware is made up of 8 vector (like Altivec but probably not compatible) processors running at 4GHz having a theoretical top performance of 250 GFlops, if you set them up as stream processors (ie each vector unit feeds each other) they may actually get close to this performance.  A lot of compute intensive applications can be streamed - video, audio and graphics rendering.

It looks like Sony are planning on putting 4 cells per chip so these things are going to be seriously powerful.

The only good detail I know of it is here in the
Cell Patent.  It's long, very confusing but very detailed.

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Yes, but they don't use the desktop-class CPUs used in computers, they use the embedded versions to cut costs. MIPS powers the PS2, and SH4 powered the Dreamcast. Neither of those CPUs are known for awesome desktop performance.


I was talking about next generation where Sony and MS both will have CPUs just as good as anything on the desktop.

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I'm just concerned that people don't use the technology that we already have intelligently enough, before moving on to the next big thing


Yes, it's amazing how many good ideas have either never taken off or have been forgotten.

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Good design, new standards, and a solution to bridge the CLI and GUI would be a big help.  Usability is a mess on modern computers.


I completely agree, 100%.
I'd add it's a lot better on some systems (i.e. OS X) than others but nobody has it perfect.

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A common snipe amongst Mac users. It might have something to do with the fact Macs have very few games. When it comes to regular, mundane computing, even an old Pentium will suffice. It's entertainment that really pushes a computer to its limits. Windows machines are designed for games, so the upgrade itch is stronger.


Apple seem to be actively targetting high compute applications these days (audio, video, movies) so at least in the Professional area these users will need the fastest machines.

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Oh, at least a year! God forbid if I have to use THIS piece of junk for more than TWO YEARS!

Upgrading every 6 months is pretty crazy, but being forced to use a Mac for 5 years before you can afford to buy a new one for $1500-$2000 is a bit extreme, too.


My PC had it's last big upgrade in 2000 when I got a CPU which was low end even then (800MHz Athlon).  I have no need to upgrade it today because running BeOS it goes like a bat out of hell - I can understand an XP user wanting an upgrade though cos it runs like a dog in this thing, God only knows what it's doing though.

Macs are different as their upgrade cycles tend to be a lot longer.  However OS X is getting faster with each release and many of the upgrades, a Mac purchased a few years ago will actually be faster than it was when new!

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For you rabid fans of the G series if you did some research you would find out the G5 wouldnt exist as it does without AMD's help thats right IBM went to AMD for a partnership, AMD and IBM worked on SOI, Low K and copper interconnects which now reside in the G5.


Erm, No.  You got that the wrong way round.
IBM made the first Athlons because AMD hadn't got the process right yet.  When they went to make the Opteron they paid IBM $54 million to help them out, IBM also made the 90nm Opteron prototypes.

IBM have been leading silicon process development for years.  For the last few years AMD have been a process developed jointly with Motorola, that process was originally licensed from ...IBM.  IBM have been the company getting the most patents for the last 10 years, many of these are silicon process related.

AMD have recently partnered with IBM that's true but probably only to save them paying IBM even more...
IBM are also helping out Sony for the Cell (both in design and process) and have licensed their current process to a few companies - including Samsung who incidently are now making the IBM G3s.
 

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Re: The ultimate Amiga One (what it should be)
« Reply #3 on: June 03, 2004, 03:25:42 PM »
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I already measure speed in A1s right now I'm playing Hitman3:Contracts on my 4-A1 Laptop


Never knew IBM made POWER4 laptops...

i.e. There's a difference but it not of that scale.

I rekon a Opteron 150 *might* get a 3 A1 against a G4 833MHz given the right test, a tail wind and the right phase of the moon  :-D