Midgets Go to War: Genesi sues Amiga Inc.

[downix]

For me it's obvious that by saying that "It's plain to see that Amiga code was used." show clearly that you have no clue the technical aspect.

I might be able to mention a more obvious API clone out there:

And...
Give me an L!
*L*
Give me an I!
*I*
Give me an N!
*N*
Give me a U!
*U*
Give me an X!
*X*
What's that spell!

Yes, you read it here folk, Linux copies an API or 3.

Their POSIX complience is entirely based on documented API for POSIX.

Same with their Sys V support, entirely based on the UNIX System V documentation.  At the time, using the actual source code was out of the question, due to AT&T's lawsuits against BSD at the time that Linux was being created.

Yes, they could *look* at the source code, to determine the API, but that was actually harder to do than to read the actual API manuals.  (As anybody worth their weight in source code can tell you)

[downix]

You know, this actually shows something interesting about Genesi.  It's showing a Genesi that isn't all talk, they're actually doing something.  Have not seen this kind of chutzpah since Jack Tramiel.  Under Jack, Commodore was in litigation for or against a few dozen companies at any one time.  Suing against stupid patents, suing to gain a position on another chip maker's fab process.  Jack understood that litigation was an important levereging tool for any business.  This is a lesson most businesses since have failed to learned.  Business tactics can range from bullying to lawsuits, but they're all tactics to gain an end-result.  By Genesi taking this tactic you can rest assured that the days of himming and hawing, toothless dogs barking, are gone from the Amiga community.  The coming times might be bloody, might even loose some previously hard core members....

But we will be re-forged again.

[downix]

Poster: amigaguy Date: 2003/2/5 12:36:38

I guess you have to ask yourself, do you think that if Genesi had made an 'Operating System' (Morph XP) that looked and worked exactly like Windows XP and ran all Windows software or an 'Operating System' (Morph Mac) that looked and worked exactly like Mac OS and ran all Mac OS software that a court of law wouldn't think this was infringing on the rights of Microsoft or Apple? I think a court might even side with Microsoft on that. Just because Amiga Inc. is a lot smaller and most people have never heard of Amiga OS doesn't make it anymore legal to do the above. I think there is a reason no other company makes a ?Windows Compatible? OS.

I?m sure some company would love to sell a product for half the price of Windows XP that looks and feels exactly like Windows and runs the entire existing catalog of Microsoft Windows software, but I think they know they would probably have no legal ground to stand on.

Just my take (no I?m not a lawyer)

Amiga Guy

 I am afraid that your thinking is not exactly correct.

In fact, there are other Windows API compatable OS's out there.  There is even a semi-done Mac OS X compatable OS out there.  

Even the Wine project has the clearly stated goal of being a Win32 API replacement.

These projects trying for Windows or Mac API's have one problem, lack of decent and complete documentation on the API's in question.  One MCSE told me once "Windows undocumented API functions could filla  book larger than it's documented ones."

This is not the case of AmigaOS, however.  Commodore supplied very thurough documentation on every major release of the AmigaOS, detailing the API's in every detail.  I own two copies of these documents, purchased on eBay.  This means less guesswork about the API's and more getting down to getting things done.

AROS and MorphOS both utilized these public documents published with Commodore's blessing.  Commodore didn't care, they were protected by patents.

Amiga, Inc doesn't own these patents, however.  Thus, their protection is non-existant, only at the whim of Gateway.

[downix]

Note the date of the patent...

This is not the patent discussed, however.  But it is a very interesting patent, one of the last ones ever created with the Amiga name on it.

Pity it doesn't cover any of the technologies being discussed here, such as right-mouse-button clicks.  I thought this had evolved into a "What does MorphOS do illegally" arguement, which this patent doesn't even touch.

But, it is a very interesting patent, and showed a very advanced concept of computer architecture that would have made AmigaObjects the pride of Gateway.

[downix]

Here's what I don't understand.
Maybe someone can help me here.
How can someone build a compatible API without getting information from the origional source code?

Easy, you use other sources of information.  For programs to be able to use an OS's API's, they will need the documentation on how to interface with the OS's API's.  Otherwise, you can't run any apps.

And if you build api's that act exactly like the origional enviornment, then you would have to write it the same way, although you would extend it further.
And the available documentation that you speak of also would have to be source code.
Correct?

I'm afraid not.  API's work via a system of interfaces and calls to those interfaces.  What lies behind those interfaces is a complete mystery to the program, they only know to use a specific API call and get a specific result.  How things work between call and result can be done one of a hundred ways, as shown by the various mechanisms to impliment the POSIX API in many OS's

So no matter how you say it, it always comes back to the origional source code.
If you're going to emulate the Amiga OS and extend it, you're gonna have to do it with the origional source code.
Correct?

Incorrect.  AROS has done it without any source code.  They just read the documentation on the system API's, and then created a new system that uses the same API calls to the same results.  The inner-mechanism for these can be worlds different.  One could use a message-passing mechanism as in a microkernel, one could use a dynamic library setup as in an executive library, and yet another methodology is to make the API calls directly to a monolithic kernel.

What other documentation would there be that would even start to help that is not source code?
Doesn't make sense to me.

The documentation used in this case are the infamous Rom Kernel Manuals, published by Commodore Business Machines.  I happen to own 2 complete sets of these manuals, the Brown and the Grey editions.  I can state quite clearly:  

These books contain no source code to the Amiga Operating System.

(Ironically, one edition does include partial schemaitcs for a segment of the Amiga chipset that were covered by patents, the blitter)

Please, purchase a copy of these books on eBay and read them.  They have complete docs on the API's, library system, even the style of the AmigaOS widget set.  With them, it is more than possible to clone an OS's API's without using a single line of code, nor even using the same mechanism for how the system operates.