MiniMig + PowerPC = OS4 Hardware for all

[downix]

The MiniMig's nowhere near that capability at this time.  You could, at best, use an A500's accelerator, and I don't think anyone has made a PPC card for the A500.

[downix]

Jethro_Tull wrote:
Hi Downix.  My idea was first upgrade the MiniMig to the  capabilities of an A1200, by adding AGA emulation.  Just as Dennis replicated all the internal busses in the FPGA, the same could be done for the PPC Accelerator. The A1200's expansion bus and the Blizzard's PPC interfaces should all be implemented inside the FPGA.  I didn't mean to plug a real PPC into the Minimig but merely to emulate one.  Using an FPGA with an integrated PPC (such as the Xilinx Virtex) might be one possible solution.  

Having read your various posts on the Minimig, you're obviously pretty qualified to judge whether such a solution is viable, what kind of development work it involves and what components would be best for the job!  Your feedback might indeed show us how in practice this might be possible!

Using a Virtex would work, but be expensive.  Also, I don't think anyone beyond bPlan knows the details of how the accelerators actually worked.  I could theorize, but there's no guarantee that some minor feature won't cause OS4 to crash and burn.

But, it is possible.  Just very expensive for minimal gain.

[downix]

Jethro_Tull wrote:
Why is the gain minimal?  Having a relativly inexpensive open platform for OS4 is definitly not a minimal gain!  

Relatively inexpensive is very, relative.  Relatively inexpensive compared to a POWER6 CPU or SPARC64 CPU, sure.  But compared to the Ekifa, it's expensive for the performance you'd be getting.  The development board is approx $900 per-unit.  Production, you'd still be looking at easily twice the cost of the MiniMig.

[downix]

AeroMan wrote:
Hi,


     The 680XX family is way expensive. By the same price of a  68060, you could get a bunch of PPCs... The numbers below came from Freescale´s site:

     MC68EC060RC50 (cheapest) - $102.09
     MC68060RC60 (really expensive dude) - $524.99
     MC68EC040FE20A (cheapest) - $61.51
     MC68040RC40A (expensive dude) - $309.30
 
While a PPC system on a chip comes from...

     SPC5200CVR400BR2 (most expensive) - $19.71

Quite nice for 760 MIPS and OS4 possibility. We just need AGA in a FPGA to be really nice ! :-D

Hrm?  The 68k I just priced was $24.94, the 200Mhz MCF547x.

[downix]

mingle wrote:
Okay, c'mon fellas... Let's assume that OS4 will materialise (:-?)

For those in 'the know' (ie: they have the expertise and time/resources available) I have a couple of questions:

1: Is it possible to create a PPC-based version of the Minimig?

theoretically

2: How long would it take to redesign the 1.1 minimig to be PPC?

for all of the time and effort,my guess would be 4-5 man years of effort

3: Is anyone willing to do it?

Cheers,

Mike.

I'm not, I'd sooner go Coldfire or with a CPU that has a future like SPARC or ARM.

[downix]

3: Is anyone willing to do it?

I am if it doesn't require imitating a classic solution like Blizzard. Also no AGA, instead modern graphics, USB, Ethernet.[/quote]
Then how is it a MiniMig?  Would it not be better to make a custom PowerPC motherboard... oh wait, almost forgot, no source of Northbridges.

[downix]

nBit7 wrote:

downix wrote:

3: Is anyone willing to do it?

I am if it doesn't require imitating a classic solution like Blizzard. Also no AGA, instead modern graphics, USB, Ethernet.

Then how is it a MiniMig?  Would it not be better to make a custom PowerPC motherboard... oh wait, almost forgot, no source of Northbridges.

It would be a OS4 machine with native support for classic.[/quote]
You'd still need a northbridge better than anything ever seen in an AmigaONE or Pegasos to get modern graphics.  

[downix]

Paradox wrote:
We need a small cheap PPC mobo to run OS4 when it starts being sold.

the latest A1200 200mhz PPC card went on ebay for 310GBP!

Why cant someone make a nice NANO-ITX SoC based 400mhz or dual core e300/600 for alot less maybe with PowerVR GPU built in so all you have to do is add RAM and Storage and buy OS4! all for under 300GBP!!!

Its better to have loads small cheap mobos that people can use then swap everyyer when a new one comes out instead of build a massive ATX 2ghz amiga which are to expensive and by the time they come out new thing hve come along so everybody want something else.

plus Soc based PPC chips are getting better and better everyday so there no need for a big box expensive amiga.

Regards

http://www.genesippc.com  Ekifa2 meets your needs.

[downix]

AndrewBell wrote:

Kronos wrote:
Propraly the same that require PPC and AGA ??  :crazy:

Read back a bit. This notion about software that needs PPC and AGA came from your mind, not mine.

Without that notion then this thread is pointless, as it is discussing a PPC w/ AGA or ECS based MiniMig, and without that AGA or ECS, you just have a Pegasos, EKiFA, AOne, Sam440, or something similar.

[downix]

MarkTime wrote:
Downix, Kronos, Piru...I'm just amazed at how you post in these threads, and really...are amazingly patient with those who know less than you, and...you talk to them without really damaging their feelings overmuch.

I couldn't do it, I'd flame them in a half second.

I used to be that way.  Then I took 3 years off

But anyway...to the original point, of developing something that could emulate a sufficient environment to run the boxed OS 4 for classic Amigas.

I think there is little point.  I understand the desire...but OS 4 will only seem important until you have it in your hands, and then your realize it didn't move the platform much.

Then you start itching for OS 5, or a modern browser, or flash, or java, or .mono or .net, or a decent game even.

OS 4 just isn't the answer.  Neither is Coldfire.  I don't care if it runs the equivalent of a 500mhz 68060...that is still dog slow.

OS 4 is still out of date, and behind the times, and nearly useless.

talk about being a party pooper...but thats not what this post is about.  

I can handle AGA in emulation in UAE....all we need for a new amiga is the best of the old Amiga IP and ideas, wrapped in a completely modern motherboard and OS.

I would buy one, if someone could sell them and keep them in stock.  Everytime I check back with genesi, they either aren't really stocking the product, or MorphOS is coming any day now.

The last time I had a pegasos...well other than it didn't seem to work, I couldn't get a CD to go with it.

Modern system.   OS with dev. tools.  Available to buy...all parts included.

Oh, now look who's being the dreamer....sorry for the rant.

Technically OS4 can offer this, but it, like MorphOS, are tied to what I view in the long term as a dead end.  The excitement of the MiniMig is that it eliminates the corporate control, but PowerPC itself gives you the same thing.  Once someone recreates the 68000 in verilog (which I heard a few people state that they were trying), it comes down to just minor peripheral components, which can be substituted without penalty.  

I don't see a future for our platform until we stop trying to do something just because Apple does it, which remains the only reason we went to PowerPC in the first place.  

In 1997, I was a heavy promoter of us going to MIPS, due to cost and the fact that we could license the chip architecture, and roll our own CPU's should a vendor try and cut us off at the knees.  Nowadays, the market has changed, and for such a migration, SPARC, ARM or SuperH would be my recommendation (in that order) for the same reasons.  I never could get licensing terms from MIPS, which saddens me.  However, I have the source to SPARC already, and even modified it for my own purposes.

I say, run the classic AmigaOS in a sandbox, much like OS X runs the classic MacOS, and build a new platform.  But, the time to market scares away everyone, and nobody seems willing to take the risk.

[downix]

freqmax wrote:
@downix:
The reason for Minimig is that the hardware is dying physicaly. And there is no new ones made.
Software emulation won't give cycle accurency that demos & games need.

As for CPUs, ARM is trigger happy litigator. I would be careful about being dependent on them.

Agreed, hence why SPARC is my preferred choise.

[downix]

Hans_ wrote:

downix wrote:
I say, run the classic AmigaOS in a sandbox, much like OS X runs the classic MacOS, and build a new platform.  But, the time to market scares away everyone, and nobody seems willing to take the risk.

That's exactly what Hyperion want to do (or should I say, the OS 4 dev team). Even if they use a similar API, based on the same principles, they have to break compatibility in order to implement things like memory protection and multiprocessing.

Hans

Indeed.  My main worry is in hardware, namely the complete lack of forward thinking.  You either have purists that insist on sticking to Mot (PPC or Coldfire or m68k), or genericists that want to go x86 (equally a dead-end in my view).  I truely want the community to tell these corporate morons to shove off and carve our own path, independent of corporate overlords dictating the direction we can go in.  That's why I'm heavily for licenseable CPU architectures.

Hard to believe we're on the same side now, eh?  

[downix]

little wrote:

That's why I'm heavily for licenseable CPU architectures.

That sounds expensive :S One thing is certain, we need to focus in what can be achieved versus what might be cool/right/visionary but is not feasible in the near future to be done by the community. Yeah I know I should follow my own advice ^^;

http://www.sparc.org  $100 licensing fee.

http://www.srisc.com/?s1 64-bit performance SPARC core design, GPL'd, free.

Doesn't seem much more expensive than the FPGA MiniMig to start with.

[downix]

little wrote:

Doesn't seem much more expensive than the FPGA MiniMig to start with.

Oh, but there is "more than meets the eye". Using a non-standard 64 bit core in the minimig FPGA brings any immediate benefits?
------------------------------------------------
Lets break it down what sparc has to offer.

Pros

- Good CPU architecture
- Not compatible with 68k

Let's add one, guaranteed source through licensing.  If you license the arch, no "cutting off at the knees" by vendor lockout[/quote]

Cons

- Non standard. Most programmers are not interested in learning another CPU architecture (most are familiar with one only).
- No simple retail option to implement a non-FPGA version.
- Low speeds (unless you get a very expensive FPGA or mass produce it, in which case it becomes expensive).
[/quote]mass production is not as expensive as it once was.

------------------------------------------------
Not lets see the freescale 68k

Pros

- Well known architecture, many programmers and hardware engineers are familiar with it. Software cores are highly feasible.
- Compatible with motorola 68k line.

Cons

- Expensive hardware. Only the 68000 is cheap, price increases quite a bit for later versions. I am speaking about retail prices, if somebody can get it used at a lower price or even free does not guarantee everybody can get those prices.
- Low speeds
------------------------------------------------
Now lets see coldfire

Pros

- Easy to implement architecture. Partially compatible with 68k, just better.
- Cheap
- Embedded. Some versions include usb, ethernet & pci right on the chip.

Cons.

- Low speeds. Higher than 68k, on par with geode but still less than current procesors.
------------------------------------------------
Now lets see PPC

Pros

- Well known architecture
- Cheap
- Embedded.

Cons

- Not compatible with 68k
- Low speeds. better than coldfire,but still far from current speeds.
------------------------------------------------
Now lets see x86

Pros

- Well known architecture
- Fast
- Cheap

Cons

- Not comatible with 68k
- Needs lots of external support chips.

And the issue with all of the bottom ones is, vendor lockout.  Motorola unable to supply the chip?  You're up the creek.  Can't find a northbridge, up the creek because you can't license the CPU bus in order to have one made.  Intel doesn't supply you with docs fast enough, you are locked into older generations while your competition surges forward.

No solution is a perfect one, but I would sooner dedicate myself to being able to stand on our own two feet than being locked into some corporate overlords whim.

[downix]

Hans_ wrote:

AFAIK, PowerPC is licenseable as well. IBM and Freescale own it (I think that IBM may have more say), AMCC and PASemi are licensed to use it, as is Xilinx, for their Virtex-4 FPGAs. I have no idea what the licensing costs are.

In the end, the actual CPU won't matter too much. The old OS will be sandboxed either way. So long as we make the jump to 64-bit, it's all good. However, a 64-bit PowerPC CPU would make the transition easier as there's no emulator to write. Forget buying PowerPC chips from Freescale; there are other vendors with better implementations.

Hans

And still no northbridges nor ones with integrated modern northbridges.  I looked into licensing the PowerPC, with no luck.  I also looked at Coldfire licensing, no go.  You can make a clone, as some folk have done, but if you're doing that, might as well clone the 68k directly.

At this time, SPARC remains the best choice, in my opinion, for a next-generation platform.