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Offline slaapliedje

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Re: Open Source Amiga OS
« Reply #14 from previous page: July 02, 2013, 09:50:45 PM »
Wiki would be awesome for such things.  Also for setting up a development environment.  That info is all over the place.  Maybe I'll set up a new domain for hosting such things.  Though I know for code there is already amiga.sourceforge.net

slaapliedje
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Offline slaapliedje

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Re: Open Source Amiga OS
« Reply #15 on: July 02, 2013, 11:36:43 PM »
Quote from: Madshib;739638
So basically, if AOS was released as an Open Source project, no one has given a clear idea as to where they want it to go. AROS is not AOS but that seems like everyone's easy answer.

Put the key in the door and retire this thread.

If I recall correctly, one of the biggest omissions of AmigaOS is memory protection, or lack thereof.  If I recall, even AmigaOS 4 doesn't have it?  Or maybe it was only recently added.

AROS is a good example of where it would go, simply for the multi-platform support.  Amiga everywhere was what one.. *cough* person *cough* kept touting as the next awesome thing.  If they had just released the code, we'd probably have that already, and AROS wouldn't need to reverse engineer all of the functions.

I think 4.x is going in the direction that it would have gone, though I really think it's only being able to run on very select hardware is what is killing it's popularity.  We all know what made the Amiga awesome in the first place is the custom chipset, but custom chips aren't really viable anymore, simply because the CPU can provide so much raw power, not to mention the graphics chips.  Oddly though the sound chips still pretty much suck.

I always kind of figured that if the hardware had improved and Commodore hadn't gone bust, we'd have something similar to the way the Atari Jaguar was set up.  Custom Graphics and Sound chips with a 68000 for bootloading the whole thing.  Would keep the software that is already written working, but give a nice fat bus speed for everything that is coded for the new hardware.  Make the hardware fresh enough and fast enough that you wouldn't need to get any upgrades for 5 or so years.  I think the biggest problem with PCs these days are sloppy coding and the constant upgrade path.  Sure it's slowed down in recent years, but the fact that newer software takes so much more memory and so much more processing speed, but doesn't have much better graphics / sound is disturbing.

That's where the AmigaOS shines.  The OS itself is so lightweight and yet versatile, that really what it needs is bug fixes.  Maybe add a few APIs to be native, like SDL, OpenGL, OpenAL, etc.  Upgrade the languages to the latest (Perl, Python, C++11, etc) and make it easier to write software for, and a reason to write software for it.  If programmers can look at how things were written to so tightly use the hardware, maybe it'll give them inspiration to make their software not require 8gb of RAM!

For what it's worth, today I told my manager that some computer was running at 99.9% CPU usage and was crawling because of some java software that is simply supposed to do something like FTP files.  I made the comment, "He needs to write his software for computers that are made today, not 20 years from now."  I have already gone blue in the face from them re-writing something as simple as transferring files in Java, and using UDP... but that's a bit off topic...

The Amiga is from an age when computers were fun, and not everyone knew how to 'use' them.  When if you had a computer, you were most likely picked on as a geek.  That's part of where the nostalgia comes in, but it could potentially bring more people back into the fold if the source code were available, and we could all learn from it as well.

But I would vote for bug fixes before features!  Which I think is the way that most of the new libraries are going.  Getting PeterK's icon.library installed really does improve the overall experience of the Amiga!  I really need to look at the other ones!

slaapliedje
A4000D: Mediator 4000Di; Voodoo 3, ZorRAM 128MB, 10/100mb Ethernet, Spider 2. Cyberstorm PPC 060/50 604e/420.
 

Offline slaapliedje

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Re: Open Source Amiga OS
« Reply #16 on: July 03, 2013, 12:14:29 AM »
Quote from: commodorejohn;739647
As far as I know OS4 doesn't have memory protection. The problem is that the Amiga software architecture is designed on the presumption of processes having free access to the memory map; message-passing is done by handing off pointers between processes, API calls are done by simply jumping to system code with no context-switching. Trying to add memory protection to that would impose huge performance penalties, if it would work at all.

Yeah, that was my understanding of it as well (from last time I looked into it, and saw articles on one of the 'complaints').  It was kind of hard from the beginning to have such a thing as memory protection.  I do know Linux requires an MMU which is why it won't work on a raw 68k for this reason (unless I'm remembering incorrectly, which is quite possible).

As far as I'm concerned, as long as applications aren't jerks, they should be happy together.  I think memory fragmentation is a bigger issue, isn't it?  (Having so many different banks of memory, some slower than others can't be all that fun to write around in.)

slaapliedje
A4000D: Mediator 4000Di; Voodoo 3, ZorRAM 128MB, 10/100mb Ethernet, Spider 2. Cyberstorm PPC 060/50 604e/420.
 

Offline slaapliedje

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Re: Open Source Amiga OS
« Reply #17 on: July 03, 2013, 01:20:45 AM »
Quote from: NovaCoder;739654
It's  interesting to see what has happened with the Atari Jaguar's development since Atari went bellyup (everything was given over to the community to do with as they wanted).   Ok it's a console and it's user base was tiny compared to AmigaOS but it's still gives you an idea of what might have happen to AmigaOS if AmigaInk had been 'nice' and done the same thing after 3.9 was released.   For one thing I guess we wouldn't have AROS/MorphOS today, or at least AROS/MorphOS would be derived from OS 3.x source code.

If AmigaInc had managed the project in a sensible way (stop laughing), they could have used the open source branch of OS3.x to feed back into OS4.x development.

Exactly!  There is a (rather tiny) group of people that are still doing homebrew and releasing things for the Atari Jaguar.  I finally bit the bullet and bought Skyhammer and Robinson's Requiem for mine, but I'm on the fence of "Do I open them and play them, or do I leave them in the package for collector's reasons?"  I'm sure I'll eventually open them when I have time.  I don't really intend on selling my Atari stuff.

The beauty would have been if they released the source, that there wouldn't have been this huge in-fighting of "do we go x86 or do we support PPC, which Commodore may or may not have gone to after 68k was dying out.."  'cause simply, it could have gone both ways, or all ways, and we'd have it for ARM, PPC, PPC64, x86, x86_64, 6502... whoa, got ahead of myself there... :D  Well, why not, they put Lunix on C64 :D

slaapliedje
A4000D: Mediator 4000Di; Voodoo 3, ZorRAM 128MB, 10/100mb Ethernet, Spider 2. Cyberstorm PPC 060/50 604e/420.
 

Offline slaapliedje

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Re: Open Source Amiga OS
« Reply #18 on: July 03, 2013, 01:25:56 AM »
Quote from: nicholas;739653
Put this as the first line in your startup-sequence.

http://www.platon42.de/files/util/TLSFMem.lha

Thanks!  I did have that installed, due to Chaos Lord's suggestion, but it was before I thought my hard drive had died.  It was actually the IDE cable, but I didn't realize that until after I had already formatted it!

slaapliedje
A4000D: Mediator 4000Di; Voodoo 3, ZorRAM 128MB, 10/100mb Ethernet, Spider 2. Cyberstorm PPC 060/50 604e/420.
 

Offline slaapliedje

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Re: Open Source Amiga OS
« Reply #19 on: July 03, 2013, 01:18:34 PM »
Quote from: Mrs Beanbag;739701
I used to work with a guy who insisted that since everyone has 3GHz quad cores and 4Gb of RAM we don't need to worry about writing efficient code. But that doesn't even make sense, since if you're processing ever larger amounts of data it becomes more and more important that your algorithms don't run in polynomial time.

You think that's bad, I was talking to one of my coworkers who used to be on one of the programming teams.  Used to be because she was promoted to being a manager of a different team.  She was talking about having problems with writing a professional sounding email, and I said I didn't have any issues with that, it's math that I sucked at, which is why I hadn't ever gotten heavily into programming.  She replied, and I quote because I can't make this up...  "Programming is easy, you just copy and paste."

:laughing:

Of course this is at a company where they (the programmers) were discussing whether or not we should start recommending to our clients that they should have 8gb of ram minimum...

slaapliedje
A4000D: Mediator 4000Di; Voodoo 3, ZorRAM 128MB, 10/100mb Ethernet, Spider 2. Cyberstorm PPC 060/50 604e/420.
 

Offline slaapliedje

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Re: Open Source Amiga OS
« Reply #20 on: July 03, 2013, 02:44:01 PM »
Quote from: NovaCoder;739719
I send most of my time copy & pasting when I'm coding, the skill is knowing what to copy & paste :)

Ha ha, this is true.  But I already know how they tend to program.  From talking to some of the other programmers that used to work here, they'd see the 'lead' programmer duplicating the same function over and over again.  This is the same programmer that earlier in the thread I mentioned his java program taking 99.9 percent CPU and making the entire system crawl.  It's like running your Quake port on an 68000.  :D

slaapliedje
A4000D: Mediator 4000Di; Voodoo 3, ZorRAM 128MB, 10/100mb Ethernet, Spider 2. Cyberstorm PPC 060/50 604e/420.