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Offline Dietmar

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Re: Boycott & computer products.
« on: April 06, 2003, 12:37:36 AM »
I don't think there is a "movement" to boycott French and German products. 500,000 people in the streets of London against a pre-emptive war: that is a movement. If there was a boycott (other than mouse-sized), it would be totally moronic: these are only two voices in a much larger world-spanning group of equally critical countries and populations. Or maybe I missed the announcement that boycots of fries are now a reasonable alternative to persuading with arguments ;)

As to French-bashing: there obviously was a campaign on conservative (often Murdoch-controlled) US papers and Fox News, clearly targeted at incensing people. It appears as if the stories were primarily pushed as a lightening rod to defer attention from US failure: Blaming the French was much easier than taking the consequences of inept behaviour (the rumblings of Rummy alienating many Europeans early in the process) like a man.

> I would feel more inclined to boycott any French products after the defacing of the war memorial, that was just sick

Care to explain your reasoning ? I don't see any logic in that statement. It's like proposing a boycott of English umbrellas to remedy the problem of English hooligans abroad: you have a problem and suggest a totally inadequate "solution". Except that it is not only inadequate but very dangerous: you alienate your European friends and neighbours.
 

Offline Dietmar

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Re: Boycott & computer products.
« Reply #1 on: April 06, 2003, 12:29:14 PM »
@asian1

> Belgium was one of 3 countries (with France & German) that vetoed US proposal to support Turkey during war with Iraq (Feb. 10, 2003).

You got your facts wrong: these countries vetoed making NATO military decisions BEORE any war, not DURING the war. The military planning was vetoed because such planning was seen as creating facts before a final decision in the UN process. After the UN process ended, the veto was withdrawn and NATO equipment and personel from Germany etc. is now in Turkey (Patriots and AWACS).
 

Offline Dietmar

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Re: Boycott & computer products.
« Reply #2 on: April 06, 2003, 12:54:06 PM »
@smerf

> since germany started playing there veto game on the US

There was no veto in the UN: the movement to vote on going to war with Iraq was withdrawn in face of three vetos (China, Russia and France) and up to six additional "no" votes, from Germany, Mexico, etc., on fear of loosing the vote. Dodging a vote doesn't look good in democracies, even if it happens in the terribly flawed institution of the UN security council. To counter that impression, the blame-the-French game started, to take public opinion away from an evaded vote.
 

Offline Dietmar

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Re: Boycott & computer products.
« Reply #3 on: April 08, 2003, 07:35:11 PM »
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You don't think the United States ever veto'd anything? We may complain about veto's now, but we certainly have veto'd plenty a resolution ourselves. (and I'm not saying we shouldn't have)


Indeed: France has hardly ever exercised its veto right in the security council (the last time was in the sixties, I believe). Germany doesn't even have a veto. Nor does Japan, the second-largest economy of the world. Most vetoes, by far (and virtually countless), come from the US. In that sense, US diplomats have the most to lose if they sideline the UN.

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Germany and France blocked the notification of member state Turkey, over this war effort. Now, NATO is a political machine and a joke just like the UN, and that represents a change, and a loss.


One has to be quite naive to believe that NATO isn't a political machine, especially in this context, when NATO was abused in an attempt to influence a UN decision (the US adminstration wanted to start NATO military planning during the UN process, two days (!) before the critical UN security council vote). It was a thinly veiled attempt to create the impression that the US had NATO backing before the ultimate vote. Which, as we now know, never took place. Contrary to public believe, the French didn't veto anything: the vote was evaded.
 

Offline Dietmar

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Re: Boycott & computer products.
« Reply #4 on: April 09, 2003, 01:25:34 AM »
@MarkTime:

While I have no idea what "notification" is, changes in NATO shouldn't surprise anyone. During the cold war, smaller countries couldn't afford to speak their mind, upsetting a careful balance. Now they can, and I think that is a healthy democratic clarifying process. For the US position, it's a loss of taken-for-granted influence, but they'll get over it. For France and Germany, the same waking-up process has happend in the EU.

> do you mean to suggest, avoiding the possibility of an 'impression' being created was a good reason to torpedo the effectiveness of NATO?

NATO has outlived itself if it remains a primarily military alliance, after removal of the confrontational situation of the cold war. To answer your question, both sides have bluffed and overplayed their cards, but it was a minor incident. The incident has highlighted divergence in NATO, it didn't create it.

> all the countries acted without honor to some extent ... the U.S. for not demanding the UN vote and allowing it to be veto'd

That was a sensible end-game decision to avoid total destruction of the UN (as would have happend if going to war after loosing a vote, openly violating the UN charta). The US administration is to blame much earlier, for its overall approach: extremely poor diplomatic skills, arbitrarily shifting focus, shady evidence, and, primarily, dissing the rest of the world by announcing the outcome at the beginning of the process: "if the UN doesn't take up it's responsibilty, we will, with a coalition of the willing".
 

Offline Dietmar

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Re: Boycott & computer products.
« Reply #5 on: April 09, 2003, 01:44:06 AM »
> Since the second world war the United Nations has served as a security for the world stability. It has been a forum of diplomacy in which nations could discuss problems.

The ironic aspect is that, inspite of all the gloomy talk about the UN being destroyed, this process has considerably strengthened the UN: for the first time, you have had massive public interest: for months, there was coverage worthy of presidental elections. Battles in the security councily, success, failure, hasty statements, suspense, second-guessing, instant polls etc. Foreign ministers are stars now. Before, nobody knew who was the foreign minister of France or England. What was sidelined before by bottomless lack of public interest is sidelined now only by intention. But the public is interested: terrific entertainment. That's good news for anybody who thinks that the UN is a good idea (and I guess that includes the USA, considering that the UN was conceived by the USA).

 

Offline Dietmar

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Re: Boycott & computer products.
« Reply #6 on: April 10, 2003, 11:45:17 PM »
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France, by using it's right to veto USA decision


Except that France did NOT use its veto ;) There was no vote. Germany didn't veto. It has no veto, on top of having had no vote. Etc.

France probably would have vetoed, given an opportunity. But many additional nays and vetos would have come from all sides of the security council at that point, when the WMD case was not convincingly made (it still is not, I believe ?). Blaming only one party was a smart and intentional abuse of the French, to hide the extend of opposition. The move was happily picked up by many US/UK media. Now it's virtually accepted as fact. The problem with the media is that war is very good for ratings, especially "Iraq War Episode II: The Return". That clouds their coverage (and ultimately their credibility).

Talking about TV stations: I read a very funny story in a newspaper the other day (The Guardian): Some shop owner in the US actually believes that his country is currently at war with France, after watching cable TV. If you watch Fox, that's almost understandable ;)

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Offline Dietmar

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Re: Boycott & computer products.
« Reply #7 on: April 11, 2003, 09:13:52 AM »
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does anybody know what russia makes


Commodities: Oil, gas, coal, steel and other metals, chemicals and petrochemicals, timber products (wood, paper), food (fish, crabs), cars and trucks, launch vehicles for satellites, nuclear power plants.