Is Amiga Inc's claim to AOS valid?

[dammy]

Did anyone read those references?
It is entirely possible that Escom and Gateway did not have the right to sell the OS (if they ever did sell it) as it may not have been properly transferred to them in the first place.
Which could very well mean that only licensees that dealt with Commodore before bankruptcy have a legal claim to use AOS.

Further, if Escom, fgateway and Amiga Inc. have never been the legal owners of AOS, how long would be needed before it lapsed into public domain?

Someone has to own it so it's either Commodore Holding or Amiga Inc, take your pick.  As for how long before it goes into public domain, 95 years since it was written.

[dammy]

For those who think that copyrights are limited to individual countries, please reference to: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_parties_to_international_copyright_agreements

[dammy]

I really wish you would stop using American laws for your examples, USA laws don't apply the rest of the world, each country has it's own laws and length of times such things apply for... so it would depend under which countries laws the documents were signed...


Example UK copyright laws (time limits)...

http://www.caret.cam.ac.uk/copyright/Page171.html

AFAIK, AOS was originally coded and copyrighted in USA.  Do you have proof it was created in the UK so it would fall under UK's copyright laws of 50 years?  I didn't think so.

[dammy]

That's not what I said, I was simply pointing out that in whichever country the agreement was signed it would fall under that countries laws. I agree that the original CBM stuff would most likely come under US law, but what about companies like Gateway where was that agreement signed and which countries laws would that therefore be under...

The agreement would be under what ever country it was agreed to in the contract.  That would not over right where the initial copyright was originally created and those laws would follow the copyrighted material until the expiration date.

I still don't get why this is even in question, AOS is too old to give a rat's rear end about when you have AROS code available. When Bill Buck was talking about if he had won the AI case and he got the code, he said he would offer it to the AROS Devs.  The AROS Devs politely turned him down because it was too out dated to be useful to them.  Even more so now that AROS68K and kickstart are back in development.

[dammy]

Again, if a company is insolvent and its assets are liquidated in a bankruptcy, it can not transfer assets to another company afterward as it no longer exists.
Bernhard Hembach was an employee of Escom. He is the individual that signed for all three parties in the three contracts that supposedly transferred the rights of this intellectual property to Gateway - this occurred three years after Commodore signed a  "Trademark Assignment" agreement with Escom, long after CBM and Commodore-Amiga were liquidated.
The only legal approval of this agreement was from a German notary.

These documents are absolutely NOT valid as Escom never obtained the rights to Amiga intellectual property - ever.

Its that simple. I can't buy one thing from a company going bankrupt and then years afterward sell something else to another company (that originally belonged to the bankrupt firm)- because I don't own it!  Get it guys? Escom never owned Amniga OS. So Gateway couldn't transfer it to Bill because they didn't legally buy it (they couldn't because Escom never owned it).

By that chain of logic, Commodore Holdings has the asset.

[dammy]

The way I see it Amiga Inc's claim to the Amiga OS is Valid.  
But that doesn't mean they own it or a copyright to it.  
OS and KS was all owned by "Commodore Amiga Inc."  According the original copyright. Full rights being onsold to Escom but not for the OS. Something was then sold to Gateway. Which retrospectively included some bodged non binding copyrights for the OS.  @ 1$ each.  Bit of a legal blunder there : See attachment.

Then it's still Commodore (Commodore Holding) IP then.  Someone has to own it, the last in the known chain would be the owner.

What did Gateway own and have a right grant license to?  unknown.
Was the license granted to Amiga Inc by Gateway exclusive?  Who knows.

GW (now Acer) sold everything, except the hardware patents which they issued a license out to, to Amiga Inc.

Did the current Amiga Inc complete the purchase of the license granted?  Evidence would suggest not.
These questions would seem to be impossible to answer legally now.

So I rang up Gateway (Acer) and asked them what they thought about me (on franko's behalf) having a right to on sell Amiga OS and kickstart, and they said "what's a meega?"

They sold it to AI over 10 years ago, of course they didn't have a clue on what you were talking about.

I can't ring up Amiga Inc as they are no longer incorporated and they don't have a phone number.

So I reckon it's either Nicholas or Franko who own it now.

Ah, that's not how it works.  Now IIRC, Hyperion and AI's last agreement, Hyperion has to enforce Amiga Inc's IP rights.  So contact Ben or Timothy and ask them if their Amiga OS license from Amiga Inc is valid or not.

[dammy]

Not sure if you're having a laugh here but did you really call Gateway/Acer... :confused:

I'd be more than happy to openly make free (again) Kickstart ROM images and Workbench Disk Sets for everyone to download on my sites instead of having them hidden away (where they are just now) for only those in know to find...

As I've said before when they were available for the world to see I never got one complaint form anyone claiming to own them and asking me to stop it or face legal action...

The only complaints I got were from the moaning minny copyright mafia on here who don't own any of it demanding the link to my site be removed and I should be banned...

I'd be very interested in calling Gateway myself if that's the reply you got and then being able to decide if I should plaster my homepage with nothing but Free downloads of KickStart & Workbench Disk Sets so that everyone can have access to them...

As I keep saying it's way past time all this was settled one way or the other and to me the only way that's going to happen is to force whomever can genuinely prove ownership to come forward and demand/threaten that any sites doing so will face legal action which I am more then willing to challenge in a court of law...

It would be an interesting test to see if Hyperion will live up to their AI agreement or not.

[dammy]

That's your opinion and your entitled to it but I beg to differ on the matter...

So I'm afraid your "opinion" doesn't clear it up for me...

Why don't you ask Ben of Hyperion then?

[dammy]

False analogy Matt.

Question.

Is using another company's registered Trademarks stealing?

No, that's devaluing the trademark.  Copying software or data is stealing.

[dammy]

In legal terms no there is no law forbidding you to point out to someone where something is, morally... well that depends on the individuals morals...

There might be a law actually, depending on a few things: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accessory_%28legal_term%29

[dammy]

That isn't strictly true.

If the copyrights were not transferred from Commodore to a third party by the liquidators there is the very real possibility that they are currently unassigned, as Commodore as a legal entity no longer exists.

But C= does exist with it's original IP, minus what was sold to EScom/Acer/AI.  I think you would have a very tough time telling the Bahama court system that no one owns AOS and it's up for grabs.

[dammy]

Dammy, how does C= exist after liquidation?

Commodore Holdings.

And would a Bahamian court decision really matter to other countries?

That is where Commodore was incorporated at actually, most likely reasons for tax or international shareholders status.  Now IIRC, the US commodore's assets were sold off in a US court in NY.  So it would be either a judge in Bahama or US Court in NY that would have to decide.  

OTOH, it would be interesting if Hyperion was stripped of it's AmigaOS license.