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Author Topic: Nasa is to reveal Mars water secrets...  (Read 14409 times)

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Offline Karlos

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Re: Nasa is to reveal Mars water secrets...
« on: April 04, 2004, 02:19:11 AM »
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AfterThought: It is often stated, that mars is too small to sustain a sizable atmosphere neccessary to sustain a living planet. I believe this to be wholey untrue, but rather, that mars had it's atmosphere destroyed by a very massive impact, after most of the free material in the solar system that could replinish it's atmosphere had dissipated. the evidence is in the southern hemisphere, a crater 6 miles deep.


I'm not sure about this, but it could be true. However, the reasons given for mars' inability to sustain a dense atmosphere aren't invalid even if the past calamity you suggest is true.

Firstly, if you determine the mean speed of lighter gases such as nitrogen and oxygen for the upper end of the martian temperature scale, you find they are quite close to escape velocity. That's not to say they simply escape into space since the atmosphere isn't warm enough overall. However, if mars was warmed, as is central to so many terraforming ideas, this might be a problem ;-)

Secondly, there is no significant magnetosphere around mars. This allows the solar wind to erode the upper atmosphere unchecked.

Thirdly, even if mars had the same mass of atmosphere as earth, the surface pressure would not be nearly as great simply because the gravitational pull is less.

All that aside, I agree. If there ever was life on mars earlier, I expect it would still be found here and there, simply because once established it's very difficult to eradicate :-)
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Offline Karlos

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Re: Nasa has revealed Mars water secrets...
« Reply #1 on: April 04, 2004, 07:10:19 PM »
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Quite remarkable, when one looks at earth`s oceans...


It seems we weren't the only planet to be awash with water.
Studies of the Deuterium to Hydrogen ratio in the water vapour in Venus' upper atmosphere suggests that an oceanic quantity (ie comparable to the total volume of earths oceans) simply boiled away at some point in it's history.

The ratio of the heavier duterium isotope is much higher there than here.

-edit-

Thinking on the solar wind issue, whilst I don't disagree (as I already posted) the solar wind is eroding it, I am curious as to the extent.

Assuming the solar wind flux/unit area diminishes as 1/(r*r) [it should do considering a constant number of particles emitted with spherical symmetry], given the orbital semimajor axis of mars is about 227 million km compared to earth's 150 million km, so the intensity of the solar wind (per unit area) relative to earth is

F = 1/(r'*r') [where r' = 227/150] = 0.43

....assuming no other losses.

Given mars' smaller radius (about 3390km verus earth's 6370), the total sunward side of mars is exposed to:

T = F * (R' * R') [where R' = 3390/6370] = 0.43 x 0.28

= 0.12

So, a very crude guess that mars is exposed to approximately 12% of the total flux of solar wind we get.

Now, given venus also has no appreciable magnetic field and is exposed to much higher levels of solar wind than mars (given its larger and closer) and retains a vast atmosphere, how much damage to mars' atmosphere is the solar wind producing I wonder?
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Offline Karlos

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Re: Nasa has revealed Mars water secrets...
« Reply #2 on: April 04, 2004, 07:57:21 PM »
@Kenny

I'm not disputing the fact that it causes atmospheric erosion, I'm just guestimating the extents.

As for the erosion of venus atmosphere, the point I was making is that if the solar wind has had billions of years to reduce it, why is it still so massively dense? Its true that venus does have its own van allen belts, but the total magentosphere of venus is very weak compared to earth (hinting at some differences in internal state).

As for the calculation, like I said, its a simple inverse square calculation to estimate the solar wind flux at mars' mean distance relative to earths, and that was 0.43.

Then I just factored in the difference in area of the earth and mars. Mars surface area is 0.28 that of earth (if you divide out you get rid of the 4pi terms etc), so it can only be exposed to 0.28 x 0.43 = 0.12 the total flux we are based on it's relative size and distance from the sun.

Perhaps the reasoning is flawed, feel free to play with the figures.
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Offline Karlos

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Re: Nasa has revealed Mars water secrets...
« Reply #3 on: April 04, 2004, 08:24:32 PM »
Still on the issue of magnetospheres, according to this geology site, Venus' magnetosphere is 1/25000 the strength of earths.

Hence it can't exactly offer much protection from the solar wind, which is even more intense there (inverse square law again) than here.

Since venus average orbital distance is 108 million km compared to earth's 150 million km, the solar wind flux at it's distance relative to here is 1.92x greater, assuming inverse square relationship again.

According to the same site, Mars' magnetosphere is 1/5000 that of earth, which makes it 5000 times stronger than venus.

So again, how come the atmosphere is still so vast after so long?

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Offline Karlos

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Re: Nasa is to reveal Mars water secrets...
« Reply #4 on: April 06, 2004, 08:49:52 PM »
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KennyR wrote:
Silicon-based life will never be anything more than sci-fi. Silicon shares many properties with carbon, but it does not form long chains. Carbon forms a bewildering number of compounds. Silicon does not. It's too metallic and doesn't like covalent bonds - especially not with itself.

Silicon makes rocks. Carbon makes chemistry.



I agree that silicon based life isn't likely, but the rest of the statement is not entirely accurate. Whilst silicon doesn't enjoy forming bonds with itself, the sp3 hybrid derived sigma bond is known for Si-Si just like carbon and a whole bunch of silanes comparable to the alkanes are known. There are even compounds that have a 3p - 3p pi bond (but you have to put rather large blocking groups on the silicon.

However, they seriously don't like exposure to free oxygen :-)

As for general silicon chemistry, virtually all compounds of silicon are toward's the covalent end of the bonding spectrum. The only thing approaching ionic silicon compounds are alkali / alkaline earth metal silides, careful hydrolysis of which was the first practical preperation of the silanes above.

As for the number of compounds, the Si-O-Si linkage is almost as versatile as the C-C linkage and there are an inestimatable number of possible combinations based on silicon-oxygen chains.
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Offline Karlos

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Re: Nasa is to reveal Mars water secrets...
« Reply #5 on: April 07, 2004, 02:52:30 AM »
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ivier wrote:
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There is more biomass inside the earth than on the surface


i personally hope for the pressurized nest, insect like creatures.


I think you might be waiting a long time for that one. I can't imagine the pressurised environment being feasible. Aside from the sheer maintainance problem, the idea of insect like creatures going outside and inhaling atmosphere in an average 6mb environment is a bit hard to take seriously.

If life is present on mars, its likely to be hardy, microscopic and probably underground.

As blobrana points out, there are plenty of terrestrial organisms that could survive martian conditions without the elaboration. And nothing succeds like simplicity, or so they say :-)
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Offline Karlos

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Re: Nasa is to reveal Mars water secrets...
« Reply #6 on: April 07, 2004, 05:22:12 PM »
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ivier wrote:

i think you do not fully appreciate how thick the martian atmosphere really is, NASA is designing planes to fly high above it's surface.

...

the creatures would not have to have much of a pressure increase to keep thier homes always above the water tripoint, there are places on mars where this already occurs, the deepest/warmest regions, like canyons, near the equator! Life on mars would have to adapt to the conditions there in order to survive, the pressurized colony is the only thing no earth life form does, and thats because no earth life form needs to.


I do appreciate the density of the martian atmosphere. It's low. Flying an aircraft is one thing - a lightweight design is feasable, especially given the lower gravity needed for the lift to overcome. Absolute density of the air is the key factor for aeronautical considerations, the absolute pressure is of lower concern. Although the two are directly related, they are not the same.

To clarify that remark, even if mars had an atmosphere at the same density as earth, the pressure would still be much less as the force exerted depends on the gravitational pull.

Going back to living systems, there are a great many things beyond the triple point of water that would affect chemical/biological properties. For one thing, the solubility of gasses decreases sharply with pressure.

When you consider how insoluable molecular oxygen is at STP here on earth, you can see that even at an optimistic 10mb pressure at the bottom of say Valles Marineris, a small puddle of water (likely to already be highly saturated with minerals) would mean that no appreciable trace of oxygen could stay solvated. Only extremophile, probably anerobic, microscopic life forms are likely to find this surface conditions endurable.

For anything more advanced, like insect life, solvating gasses in its bodily fluids (or whatever rudimentary circulatory system it may have) is likely to be inordinately difficult even at several times the mean surface pressure of the outside. Just look at the binding efficiency curve of myoglobin / haemoglobin and other oxygen binding systems here (all very efficient at their job) versus the partial pressure of O2. It falls off very sharply as the pressure falls.

This is one reason why higher animal life on earth struggles to survive at altitudes where the overall pressure, proportion of oxygen, and temperature ranges are still much more tolerable than mars.

Given the idea life conquers all extremes, the lack of any higher organisms at these altitude on earth suggests that mars, where the pressure is already far lower, atmospheric oxygen is about 0.13%, harsh infiltered solar radiation and extreme temperature shifts, the likelyhood existance of anything beyond extremophile life becomes even more remote.

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if it was a slow leaking of the atmosphere into space as some believe then they would most definately had plenty of time to adapt. if it was a sudden event, as i suggested, with a massive impact destroying the atmosphere, then there will be a much smaller chance of such an adaptation is far less likely, but still possible. the earliest forms of life adapt the quickest.


It's not impossible both are responsible. An earlier cataclysmic loss of atmosphere is possible, given some of the massive impact sites, but whatever atmosphere remained is being scavenged by the solar wind, if the measurments made by some of the first probes to orbit the planet are to be accepted.
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