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Author Topic: ADOOM on A600 running 22-35 FPS  (Read 81197 times)

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Offline Karlos

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Re: ADOOM on A600 running 22-35 FPS
« on: February 10, 2015, 08:57:55 PM »
All this back and forth...

Seems simple to me. Pack as much speed and memory as physically possible within a given price. RAM is pretty cheap these days. If, for instance, you can add 2GiB of memory and an 060 class CPU for even twice the price of a 128MiB based solution then do it. In reality I doubt it will really increase the cost by such a large factor.

2GiB may seem vast for a 68K machine but it simply means applications can work on larger projects and more applications can be open at once (as long as they are not CPU bound).

One technical point, if you are implementing an MMU, you might get some big tables.

If there are other, hardware based reasons for sticking to smaller memory sizes, then that's fair enough.
« Last Edit: February 10, 2015, 09:01:21 PM by Karlos »
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Offline Karlos

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Re: ADOOM on A600 running 22-35 FPS
« Reply #1 on: February 10, 2015, 09:08:54 PM »
Quote from: danbeaver;783563
Moderators should not enter the fray with an opinion that can't be argued because they are a "Moderator."  This seems to be quite common with the result of a user being banned.

Huh? The previous post is my opinion on the subject at hand. Not a moderation statement. If you think my opinion on adding as much ram as reasonably possible is invalid, nobody is going to get banned... Lol
« Last Edit: February 10, 2015, 09:11:45 PM by Karlos »
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Offline Karlos

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Re: ADOOM on A600 running 22-35 FPS
« Reply #2 on: February 10, 2015, 09:19:03 PM »
Quote from: OlafS3;783565
The price for RAM chips are not the problem. The Vampire is how it is with its 64 MB RAM. The new boards are based on off-the-shelve boards that have the advantage to be cheap. These boards have a certain amount of RAM. You can of course make a custom board that would be much more expensive or you take a premium board that is more expensive too. I am sure there will be more advanced options with more RAM in future. For me it is more important to have a general technical lift of the whole user base than just a small number of power users.


So it's the off-the-shelf board underpinning the project that limits the amount of memory? If so, then that's a reasonable trade-off.

I don't think the term "power user" really fits an Amiga enthusiast.

Anyway, if a 68060 class expansion with GiB levels of RAM ever shows up for A1200 and so on, I'd definitely be interested. Alas my A600 is long dead :(
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Offline Karlos

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Re: ADOOM on A600 running 22-35 FPS
« Reply #3 on: February 10, 2015, 09:25:54 PM »
Quote from: danbeaver;783568
Users are not allowed to argue with Moderators


Shush, then :lol:
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Offline Karlos

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Re: ADOOM on A600 running 22-35 FPS
« Reply #4 on: February 10, 2015, 09:28:57 PM »
Quote from: OlafS3;783571
the bigger card will be for A500

if a Amiga user needs 2 GB RAM I would call him a "power user" :-)


I didn't need a 1.25 GB HDD for my A1200 in 1994 but I still went for it. You always find a use for more resource.

Incidentally, that drive still works 21 years later :)
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Offline Karlos

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Re: ADOOM on A600 running 22-35 FPS
« Reply #5 on: February 10, 2015, 09:35:37 PM »
Quote from: danbeaver;783573
Rule violations:

"Amiga.org Webmasters' or Moderators' discretion:
Criticism of moderation decisions or the deletion of posts"


Seriously? You're pulling my leg, right?!

Just to be clear, in case you really are serious. Users aren't supposed to argue moderator's moderation decisions publicly. Do you see a moderation decision here?

Moderators are still users and are allowed opinions on whatever is being discussed. At least when I last checked.
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Offline Karlos

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Re: ADOOM on A600 running 22-35 FPS
« Reply #6 on: February 10, 2015, 09:38:11 PM »
Quote from: Oldsmobile_Mike;783575
Fantastic!  What's the make & model of that puppy?  :D

Seagate Medalist, slimline 3.5 inch, "fast ATA", or vanilla IDE as it is otherwise known ;)
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Offline Karlos

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Re: ADOOM on A600 running 22-35 FPS
« Reply #7 on: February 10, 2015, 09:49:16 PM »
Quote from: OlafS3;783577
I have a problem when I have to use the original low resolutions. If you normally use RTG you do not want to go back :-)


True. The Bvision was the single biggest upgrade to my system since the first accelerator I installed (from vanilla 14MHz EC020/2MiB chip to full 25MHz 040 with 16MiB 60ns fast). Productivity software really does get transformed moving from AGA hires laced to flicker free RGB modes. I used a 1600x1200 75Hz 16-bit Workbench for years, though 1280x1024 is better on my ageing eyes these days.
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Offline Karlos

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Re: ADOOM on A600 running 22-35 FPS
« Reply #8 on: February 11, 2015, 09:09:00 PM »
Quote from: biggun;783674
Why not?

Sometimes people ask some funny questions..
I've occasionally wondered what the 680x0 might have become if it had  achieved the same sort of popularity as the x86. The latter had a lot more severe obstacles to overcome with respect to the horrible ISA, historical transitions of the architecture from 16 bit to 32, then 64, not to mention things like virtualization. Yet it managed to succeed thanks to lots of money and skilled engineers working around said train wrecks.

The 680x0 is unarguably a superior architecture than the x86 was when considering forwards compatibility. 32 bit registers from day 1, virtualization issues resolved by the 68010, sensible instruction layout, good fpu integration (the x87 is a nightmare in comparison). Imagine what the same reservoir of cash and talent could have accomplished with it.

It's not hard to imagine the registers growing to 64 bit, a few new instructions for 64 bit wide operations and additional SIMD extensions being added for multimedia.

Meanwhile, in reality...
« Last Edit: February 11, 2015, 09:11:16 PM by Karlos »
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Offline Karlos

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Re: ADOOM on A600 running 22-35 FPS
« Reply #9 on: February 12, 2015, 10:56:16 PM »
If you look at the evolution of the 680x0 while it was in development, the 68020/882 represents the peak of (non-privileged) 68K instruction complexity. The 040 and 060 focused on streamlining it so that only the most used operations were implemented in silicon.

Now, if you compile code for 020+, a good compiler avoids emitting anything needing traps on 040/060 (of course it can and does happen).

In my humble opinion then, if the FPGA implementation covers the 68040/60 operations (not necessarily every 020/882 operation) then it'll be great just as is. Any extra additions are niceties as it will take time to implement assembler/compiler/debugger tools for them. It's really up to the guys making the hardware. And fair play to them.
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Offline Karlos

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Re: ADOOM on A600 running 22-35 FPS
« Reply #10 on: February 14, 2015, 11:34:09 AM »
Quote from: Oldsmobile_Mike;783925
Which was exactly *my* point.  Thankyouverymuch for finally drinking the Kool-Aid.

Soap box time.

The problem is that the definition of "bitness" has changed over time. Today, it's pretty much the logical address / pointer size. Nobody really cares what the ALU and maximum integer operand size is, though in any architecture with general purpose registers (ie can be a pointer or integer) they tend to be the same width for obvious reasons.

In the early 80s, it was all about the ALU register / data bus size. 8-bit CPUs had 8 bit registers and did operations 8 bits at a time and performed 8-bit data transfers to/from memory/io.

However, every one of them that springs immediately to mind could use a pair of 8-bit register to define a 16-bit address. Most could even perform 16-bit register pair manipulation, for example incrementing or decrementing a whole 16-bit address at once. However, nobody ever considered them as anything other than strictly 8-bit.

In the 16-bit era, this paradigm was largely unchanged but architectures were starting to vary significantly. Some kept the 8-bit model of using pairs of registers to represent an address but individual registers, the ALU and data bus were still 16-bit.

Others, like our much loved 680x0 took a much longer term view. The 68000 had 32-bit wide registers for address and data. The ALU still worked on 16-bit halves at a time, transferred data 16 bits at a time and missed some 32-bit operations (32x32 multiply for example). However, it could still do the majority of 32-bit operations directly in hardware.

We called it 16-bit for want of a better description. It fit because of the data bus width/alignment but it didn't fit the internal register model nearly as well.

Under the current logical address/pointer size definition, it's definitely 32-bit. Nobody gives a rat's bumhole that it only had 24 of the 32 address bits exposed to the outside, neither did many early 32-bit processors or 64-bit ones. Physical connectivity is an implementation detail, especially when considering an architecture as a whole and not just a given chip in the family.

The 68020 is more clearly 32-bit in that it's ALU and data bus are 32-bit, but the EC version still has only 24 address bits exposed. The 32-bit era is where ALU and logical address size were really matched for the first time for almost all architectures. And that's where the "bitness" definition began to change to the present one. There were machines with 64-bit data / ALU but they didn't break the 32-bit logical address space. I guess the 4GiB limit became the new envelope to push against as processors were getting fast enough at crunching data but couldn't easily work on large enough sets of it.

Whether the 68000 is 16 or 32-bit simply depends on which decade's thinking you look at it from.
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Offline Karlos

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Re: ADOOM on A600 running 22-35 FPS
« Reply #11 on: February 14, 2015, 12:56:47 PM »
Quote from: matthey;784007
The 68000 is a 16/32 bit hybrid (more 16 bit) and the 68020 is full 32 bits in my eyes.


I'd say that's late 80's view. Atari would have agreed, they marketed their 68000 machines in those terms.

Quote
It's software that matters and good ISAs ;).

Quite. And this is why I don't share what I take to be your pessimism (sorry if I've misinterpreted your objection) to Gunnar's augmentation to the 680x0.

The reason being that if he adds super awesome vector unit X and relaxes various existing restrictions, it won't make any difference to the corpus of existing software. As long as his implementation is compatible with existing object code and is faster than existing 68K solutions then I believe he's got the formula right. Most folks, myself included, want an affordable, performant accelerator card. I missed out on a good 68060 card when they were being sold originally and now they are like rocking horse poop with a price to match. Anything faster than my 040 is a result for me.

That said, I believe you are right to want some steering on any chages to the ISA. I am optimistic that this can happen simply because anything new requires software to be written for it. And unless he aims to write it himself then  cooperation with software guys is inevitable. I'm sure he wants any augmentation to be genuinely useful
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