MacOS XXXX!

[Karlos]

Hi,

As some of you may know I have to work with MacOS X at work. Today, during the routine copying of some files from my eMac to the server (running 10.3 Server) there was a timeout error and I had to cancel the operation.

"No big deal", I thought; the last few files were junk anyway. I then set about installing an airport extreme card in the emac used in the sales room (no untidy network cables allowed in there) and it all went swimmingy. Until I tried to connect to the server.

So, knowing the robustness and quality of MacOS X, I figured, "no bid deal, the server probably needs rebooting" - it's brainfarted once or twice in the past. Our networking guy left and in the meantime it's up to yours truly, hired as a web developer for my php/mysql/dhtml/java knowledge (I know jack about macs and not much more about networking) rather than this.

Luckily, our internet is handled by our router so the server going down is of no consequence for internet use. However there are lots of documents and user's work stored on it.

So, I went up into the loft and sure enough the G4 was sitting there with a "You need to restart your machine" message, in no less than five different languages, against a dark grey screen.

So I did. And the same screen reappeared. No matter what I did, this same screen appeared.

So I tried the safe boot. Same result. Fearing some HD invalidation, I tried booting from the OSX Server install CD to do a disk check. Still nothing...

Having consulted the manuals, online help etc. still no further on in solving it.

So I removed the HD and swapped it for another identical G4 mac and it booted fine. Said HD from server caused the twin G4 mac to fail as already described.

Getting desperate now I tried to use the server HD as a second drive to see if I could run a disk check utility then. But alas the failed HD completely inhibits the mac from functioning even when it's set up as a slave drive (and yes, I do know how to set drives up for master / slave - I'm not an average mac user :evilgrin: )

No safe boot, no boot from CD, network, USB, firewire, other HD as primary etc.

Now I know what they mean by "think different". You need to really do that to solve the sort of problems that take five minutes under Windows/AmigaOS/Linux etc.

[Karlos]

HopperJF wrote:
Did you ever repair permissions while you had this machine running, or do you wait for things to go wrong first? ;-)

Looking after the server was not my job. The network guy was pretty vigilant about these things so I expect they were OK.

I fail to see why broken permissions om the HD should make the system totally unusable in every way, even booting from CD. Furthermore, why were they so broken in the first instance?

However, again we see the Mac paragdim here. You need to remember to fix it when it isn't broken to stop yourself getting totally screwed when it is.

Any excuse to take the blame away from the OS, eh?

You can't deny it, even windows is better behaved when there is a problem.

[Karlos]

I fully expect the non-cooperation is deliberate. After all, how else are Mac support companies supposed to make any money?

I can see the design discussions:

Engineer Team Representive: "Well, Mr Jobbs, we eliminated most of the bugs in Panther now.."

Steve: "Ah, great great. Faster, stronger and better."

EPR: "There's only the hard fail things to finalize. We have developed a state of the art reporting tool that we can fit into the firmware and give the user a thorough diagnostic of any failure."

Steve (alarm bells ringing): "Does it give complicated output?"

EPR: "Well, it gives you a concise textual report, after all it needs to run in cases where the OS GUI services cannot be started."

Steve (anger rising): "Textual? You mean no GUI? That's bad. I mean having to soil ourselves with bash was bad enough, but expert users may need it and at least it runs after the essential cool eyecandy is started. This isn't Windows we are talking about here! What alternatives do we have?"

EPR (loosens collar slightly): "Well, we could just refuse to boot up and display a nice error picture for the same amount of bios storage space, throw in a few languages explaining there was a 'problem'..."

Steve (calming): "Yeah, go on..."

EPR: "but of course it would be about as useful as a chocolate oven tray."

Steve: "No, no, I disagree. The user doesn't need to worry about such things. After all, we do have to consider our registered support technicians, do we not?"

EPR: "I'll tell the team to go with the big power button logo and multilingual text then...."

[Karlos]

Are you suggesting that some bad file permissions (considering it was last "repaired" under a week ago) should be enough to bring the OS to its knees to the extend that you can't even boot from another device so long as the hard drive is attached?

If that's the case, OSX is even worse that I thought!

[Karlos]

@JetFire

Thanks. As it goes, I've checked the harware out - everything seems fine. It will boot from another HD containing OSX 10.3 no problem. As I said, it purely seems to be a problem with the Hard Disk or its contents.

[Karlos]

AmiGR wrote:
> You need to really do that to solve the sort of problems
> that take five minutes under Windows/AmigaOS/Linux etc.

Oki. I can safely assume that you never faced such a problem
under Windows then. It's a *BITCH* to solve... Same with
AmigaOS and FFS, trying to salvage all your old files.

Wrong on both counts. Both the PC and amiga could still be booted at least. Of all the OS's I ever worked with, only MacOS X has refused to boot from any device just because there is a HD in the system that is having trouble.

[Karlos]

@Thread

Don't get me wrong, when it's working, OSX is fine. However, when it is not working it is the absolute pits!

[Karlos]

Thanks for the tips. I think we have a firewire drive housing someplace.

If not, do you know if it is possible to shove the drive in another Mac and start it up as a firewire drive (I remember doing this to transfer some data from an old iMac)?

[Karlos]

@McNorris

Thanks for the heads up there. Reaing your post I'd have to say it's most like case (3). To recap

The machine will not boot when the drive is attached to either IDE chain and regardless of master/slave device configuration on either chain. It will not boot if there is already a functioning bootable hard drive present (and you are using the dodgy drive as a slave).

By "will not boot", I mean the machine stops with a message saying it must be restarted. You cannot boot from CD.

In short, having the drive attached to the system (via the IDE) is sufficient to render the system completely useless.

I've isolated the problem as far as the drive (or it's contents) having swapped it between several identical G4 systems.

I've yet to try that firewire idea, however.

[Karlos]

@adz

Don't worry dude. I spent a good portion of the last 2 days badmouthing all things Mac and wasted some of this thread myself :lol:

Of all the problems to get lumbered with literally days after the network guy left. Sod's law I tell you!

Hmmm, maybe he saw it coming :-D

[Karlos]

@adz

Yeah, maybe he did. It was suspiciously soon after he left.

It actually happened during a routine saving of data from one of the eMacs to the server.

TBH, the machine that is being used as the server isn't up to the job IMHO - its just a basic G4 box and doesn't even have RAID. Asking for trouble there, methinks :-)

@neofree

Relax dude, no offense taken. Like I said, I was about ready to take a brick to the thing myself :lol:

[Karlos]

@Adz

Are you sure raid wouldn't have helped? You'd have several other drives intact all with the same data on them ;-)

[Karlos]

@Adz

Ah. I was thinking more in the line of filesystem errors resulting from messsed up drive sectors. But as you say, filesystem errors resulting from the server bombing out would have shagged the lot.

[Karlos]

Probably a good start would be to use an OS that isn't likely to trash its own disk and then get all petulant about booting when the disk it's done the dirty on is still connected....

Honeslty, it's like a spoiled kid :lol: