Iraqi Olympic Football Player

[Karlos]

No offense, but you don't know a thing about this individual or what he has seen and experienced, both before and after the  invasion.

For all you know, he's seen gore and carnage you and I are never exposed to, possibly lost loved ones as a result of the war and seen his country reduced from an oppressive dictatorship (bad enough already) to a virtually lawless anarchy with no sign of improvement and either a radical theocracy or puppet government to look forward to in future.

Perhaps you should just be thankful that he *is* in Athens, playing football and not taking pot shots at soldiers in Iraq...

[Karlos]

X-ray wrote:
@ Karlos

So do you think it was appropriate for an Olympic contestant to make comments like that?

Does that mean that an American contestant (who may have lost a relative in Iraq) can go on TV and say that if he wasn't in the Games he would be in Najaf shooting Iraqi trouble-makers?

Oh, all of a sudden its not so appropriate.

I didn't say that, did I? I don't think it was appropriate at all - I don't agree that sports and politics should mix on any level. I'm just trying to make you see that your inference that "he should be grateful theres no Uday around to torture him when he goes home having lost..." was equally out of place. Sure the guy should be thankful that Uday isnt around anymore, but the problem is that the old enemy (the dictatorship) has been replaced with a new one (the occupying forces) in the eyes of many ordinary iraqis.

Incidentally, your analogy is a bit flawed, given the US invaded iraq. Had Iraq have invaded America, it would have been an equivalent remark for an American contestant to say s/he would otherwise be in the US (maybe with the Michigan Militia?) shooting at Iraqis...

[Karlos]

@X-Ray

Oh, so I must not have interpretted your first reply properly then.

Possibly. I wasn't too clear either. There was no intended inference one way or the other as to how appropriate such a remark was, just that the guy clearly has very strong feelings. I had hoped that this was obvious, but even re reading my own post I can see that it isn't.

You said "..but you don't know a thing about this individual or what he has seen and experienced, both before and after the invasion."

What is the inference in that remark? That the individual is justified in making that comment, or that he is not justified?

 
No inference intended (but as I say my view is that it's wrong to mix politics into sport). I was actually trying to highlight that the guy has probably been through much more than you or I realise and that perhaps explains (but not justifies in the sense you are asking) his actions.

Understanding a view is not neccesarily the same as agreeing with it.

Unless you are insinuating that the 'token' government and/or the US forces intend to torture him just the same when he gets back, because you claim that one evil has been substituted for another?

I said that in the eyes of many everyday iraqis that one evil has been substituted for another. The iraqis by and large didn't like Saddam. That doesn't mean they like the occupying forces any more than they did their previous regime. Again, this is just trying to see it from their perspective.

As for torture... *cough* Abu Graib *cough*

However, even without that particulare debacle, I would say its not unreasonable to argue that having to live in a country in the state Iraq is presently in - continous fighting, terrorism, lack of basic amenities, lack of work etc. - is pretty torturous.

I'm sorry if you find these views offensive.

[Karlos]

@XRay

It seems we can agree to disagree :-) But I do agree on the point that the games is no place for this kind of thing, even if I can understand his sentiments. So we dont disagree on everything.

I'm not disputing that americans have suffered in Iraq, but ultimately what happened to any american solidiers or contracters happened because they went there. You can't invade a country (under any pretext), and expect everybody to welcome you with open arms.

It's very easy to become detached from the true horror of war, seeing it santitized, portrayed as an honourable fight with clearly defined objectives, well defined enemies and the feel good reports of grateful people welcoming heroic troops as they drive through the streets immediately following liberation.

The reality is rather different :-(

The battle for hearts and minds is usually lost the moment the first innocent casualties start appearing - and given the sheer number of them so far, it's obvious where such antipathy comes from. Be thankful you are largely spared the images of burned, mangled babies after "strategic" bombing raids, children shredded into unidentifiable chunks of gore after playing with unexploded clusterbomb ordinance (appaulingly the same colour as the food parcels), massacres in fallujah as scores innocent people in the wrong place at the wrong time gunned down by jumpy soldiers, civilians blown apart with DU rounds from helecopter gunships (gasp that one even made it into the news here), the faces of people who have seen their familes and homes obliterated by single misdirected bomb (so called smart bombs were largely a minority weapon in the "shock and awe" offensive), the humiliation and torture of prisoners, etc. etc.

Take the four contractors (incidentally all of whom were mercenaries) that were burned and mutilated, multiply that number by several thousand and replace with ordinary people and that is the scale of the tragedy you are looking at.

You must also consider that the average Iraqi in the street had a pretty deep mistrust of the US to begin with, irrespective of their views on their own government. After decades of being fed the "great satan" opinion, seeing the US's unconditional support for Israel (economically, politically and militarily), being encouraged to rise up against their dictator in GW1 and then watching as the all troops left, leaving the uprisers to be massacred, years of sanctions and finally another messy war with (tens of) thousands of casualties, are you honestly surprised?