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Author Topic: MiniMig + PowerPC = OS4 Hardware for all  (Read 30019 times)

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Offline Jethro_TullTopic starter

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MiniMig + PowerPC = OS4 Hardware for all
« on: October 26, 2007, 01:31:24 PM »
Having read in the news how the lucky few with an accelerated Amiga will be finally enjoying OS4, a crazy idea came to mind.  Maybe I'm just stating the obvious, and just dreaming up something which is technically impossible, but wouldn't a Minimig with a PowerPC processor offer an an affordable and readily available platform for OS4 classic?  

Hyperion apparently cannot port OS4 to any other platform (be it SAM440, Effika or a PPC MacMini) due to the current court litigations, which won't be resolved anytime soon. But selling OS4 for Classic Amigas is seemingly not a problem.  So why not emulate the existing Classic Amigas with a powerPC accelerator and run OS4 for classics unmodified?  Obviously the Minimig would need to be revised with the addition of AGA emulation, an additional PowerPC CPU, additional RAM and addtional logic in the FPGA to emulate a Blizzard or CyberStorm accelerator.  

Not a trivial task by any means, but thanks to Dennis and his forward looking generosity, we already have the building blocks.  And if Dennis managed to create from scratch an Amiga emulator in about a year, I beleive other talented individuals in this community might be able to pull off a PowerPC based AGA emulator in a similar timeframe.  

In my opinion, having the community actively work on such a solution is always better then simply sitting still waiting for the current quagmire to settle.  If PowerPC MiniMig is indeed possible, it would offer a win-win solution both for Hyperion (who would obviously sell many more copies of OS4) and to Amiga hobbyists (who will be able to run OS4 without spending a fortune while relying on old hardware)

Jethro Tull
 

Offline Jethro_TullTopic starter

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Re: MiniMig + PowerPC = OS4 Hardware for all
« Reply #1 on: October 26, 2007, 01:53:38 PM »
Hi Downix.  My idea was first upgrade the MiniMig to the  capabilities of an A1200, by adding AGA emulation.  Just as Dennis replicated all the internal busses in the FPGA, the same could be done for the PPC Accelerator. The A1200's expansion bus and the Blizzard's PPC interfaces should all be implemented inside the FPGA.  I didn't mean to plug a real PPC into the Minimig but merely to emulate one.  Using an FPGA with an integrated PPC (such as the Xilinx Virtex) might be one possible solution.  

Having read your various posts on the Minimig, you're obviously pretty qualified to judge whether such a solution is viable, what kind of development work it involves and what components would be best for the job!  Your feedback might indeed show us how in practice this might be possible!

 

Offline Jethro_TullTopic starter

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Re: MiniMig + PowerPC = OS4 Hardware for all
« Reply #2 on: October 26, 2007, 01:57:18 PM »
Whether it counts as a classic dosen't really matter, as long as it can run an off the shelf, original copy of OS4!  The PowerPC-Minimig can be sold without OS4 and Kickstart, which the buyer would then obtain from Hyperion and Cloanto respectively.  In time, it might even be possible to emulate other machines or use it as a general small form factor board!
 

Offline Jethro_TullTopic starter

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Re: MiniMig + PowerPC = OS4 Hardware for all
« Reply #3 on: October 26, 2007, 02:11:12 PM »
I beleive we need to source processors which are merely PPC compatible, not perfect copies of the 603 or 604e.  Also, we probably don't need to emulate the Blizzard PPC accelerator perfectly, but just enough to run OS4, which at face value seems easier then emulating an entire Amiga, down the the chipset timing and all other nuisances.

While Dennis had to emulate an OCS Amiga perfectly in order to run the vast reportoire of Amiga games, this time we simply need to emulate a Blizzard just enough to run OS4 reliably.  Since OS4 runs on various other platfroms with a wide variety of processors (A1, MicroA1, CybertSorm, Blizzard etc) it is probably a lot more forgiving as regards emulation then many Amiga games and hardware hitting programs.  Indeed, emulating the general setup of the Blizzard PPC might be enough to get OS4 going!  

Anyone here who has intimate knowledge of how the Blizzard PPC works may help! Maybe explain how the GAL which interfaces the processors with the Amiga and RAM can be reverse engineered if need be?  Remember, the 68K series processors is not used by OS4, so it's just neeeded to boot the Minimig and pass control to the PPC.  

When Dennis announced his Minimig project on this site, I was one of the many sceptics who thought it was impossible to recreate such a complex machine as the Amiga, but I was gladly proven wrong, as increadible as this looked.  By comparison, the task of emulating a Blizzard PPC just enough to run OS4 seems definitly possible!
 

Offline Jethro_TullTopic starter

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Re: MiniMig + PowerPC = OS4 Hardware for all
« Reply #4 on: October 26, 2007, 02:28:52 PM »
Why is the gain minimal?  Having a relativly inexpensive open platform for OS4 is definitly not a minimal gain!  I'm sure it did not appear a minimal gain for Dennis to replicate the cheapest, most widely available and least powerfull Amiga in an FPGA, but he went ahead and did it.  And as they say, the rest is history!  

Really, the alternative to the PowerPC-Minimig is either shell out a small fortune for old used hardware, buy a used discontinued A1 for a similarly high price or hope the current legal issues are resolved and wait for Hyperion to port OS4 to the SAM440.  None of the options sound better then having an open hardware platform for the existing, unmodified OS4 in my books!
 

Offline Jethro_TullTopic starter

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Re: MiniMig + PowerPC = OS4 Hardware for all
« Reply #5 on: October 26, 2007, 02:35:27 PM »
Indeed a software emulator which relies on a real CPU would also be an ideal solution!  MacMini Amithlon anyone?  it seems ACube already had some working prototype up and running.  Maybe they could team up with Cloanto (they're both Italian after all) and release AmigaPPC Forever OS4, what a mouthfull!  

Again, I'm asking the technical guys here what are the chances of using open source PPC virtualisation software as the basis to run OS4 on PPC Macs, such as the Mac Mini?  Although in the long run we'd still be stuck to buying second hand hardware to run OS4, at least it's readily available, cheaper and vastly more powefull then either the A1 or PPC Accelerators.  It also runs MacOS X, which must be the best OS known to man, excluding OS4 of course!
 

Offline Jethro_TullTopic starter

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Re: MiniMig + PowerPC = OS4 Hardware for all
« Reply #6 on: October 26, 2007, 02:49:18 PM »
Thanks, I stand corrected on calling virtualisation an emulator.  However, if  OS4 Classic and the Amiga virtualisation software are sold seperatly, wouldn't that beat the licensing issues?  After all, OS4 Classic is sold  to run on classic hardware, no harm done from from Hyperion's part!  As for the Amiga virtualisaton software, it could be sold seperatly, without any of Amiga Inc's precious IP included, thus avoiding their wrath and sidestepping any licensing issues.  Cloanto, would simply supply the legal Kickstart files if they're needed to run OS4.
 

Offline Jethro_TullTopic starter

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Re: MiniMig + PowerPC = OS4 Hardware for all
« Reply #7 on: October 28, 2007, 06:21:02 PM »
Thanks to everyone for your posts, this thread has certainly swelled rapidly!  To make myself clear, let me reiterate that the main aim of adding Blizzard PPC support for the Minimig is to run Classic OS4 unmodified.  Just to allow everyone to run OS4 easily, without resorting to scavenging for old and expensive hardware.  

It's easy to get carried away and conjure plans of complete new PPC boards, but the current situation is that even though such boards already exist, OS4 does not run on them.  And personally, what I'd like is to get cheap, readily available hardware in Amiga users' hands capable of running the existing OS4.

Without wanting to sound like a troll, I firmly believe if Dennis had asked the Amiga community's opinion and views before starting out on the MiniMig, he would've been either discouraged or disenchanted by the pervasive negative atmosphere of this community, and he wouldn't have even started on his project!  Without pointing any fingers (hey, I called him a fraud myself!) everyone's finding fault with each others' ideas, and it's simply depressing.  Fortunatly, Dennis started posting when the MiniMig was virtually ready, and gave this veritable ace in preserving the Amiga in our hands.  Now, are we going to build positively on this or just trample over it with our over sized egos and remain empty handed as usual, at the mercy of any organization who'd fancy taking us Amiga users for a ride?

As AndrewBell pointed out, another solution might be virtualisation on an existing PPC platform, namely the Apple Mac.  Software development is certainly less time consuming and a more widespread skill then hardware development.  So Andrew's idea is certainly more viable in the short term.  On the other hand, adding Blizzard PPC emulation to the MiniMig would provide an affordable open platform for the current OS4, and also provide Classic Amiga support to run games and other hardware hitting software.  In other words, a new Amiga which is truly compatible with old software, and truly carries on the Amiga name, not an anonymous PPC board which has to run UAE just like an ordinary PC to be Amiga compatible!  

While I wouldn't dare minimizing the task, maybe simply reverse engineering the Blizzard libraries and probing the A1200 expansion bus would yield enough clues for the emulation.  After all, how did Hyperion and the MorphOS team port their respective operating system to run on these boards without intimate knowledge of their workings.  Indeed, Hyperion could (maybe unofficially) land a helping hand in the development of the PPC Minimig, since it would obviously be in their interest!

Some community members over here (Crom00) beleive that the existing MiniMig can be mass produced at low cost, and are actively working on the idea.  So how much a minimal PPC processor, additional RAM and maybe an additional FPGA would add to the total cost? Certainly not enough to make it more expensive then the SAM440 or the now defunct A1, and cheaper to what Blizzard PPC cards are being sold for!  

Look at this thread, I've proposed an idea, which although it might be impossible to realize, is still an idea in my opinion worth discussing.  I've asked for technically minded members to reply with how this could be done in practice, and what has this thread turned into?  Pointless bickering over who said what, who misunderstood what and who misquoted who.  For Pete's sake, grow up and move on! If this is really what the current Amiga community has to offer, well, draw your own conclusions folks.  

Maybe even if we get our hands dirty, and try to build the PPC MiniMig, it won't work out, and maybe a technical, legal or commercial hurdle will prove insurmountable at the end.  But when the years go by, and Amiga Inc, ACK or someone else comes round peddling their latest vapor ware and empty promises to this battered, betrayed community yet again, we might hold our heads high and claim we at least tried to develop real, independent hardware to keep the Amiga alive, rather then swallow each and every lie and hope foolishly ad infinitum

Thanks to anyone reading through this long rant!

Cheerio; Jethro Tull