Rochester, NY teacher gets suspended for washing students mouth out with soap

[mikeymike]

Speel, kids need discipline.  There are times when parents or teachers need to employ more drastic methods of enforcing discipline, and in a way they are failing in their ability to enforce discipline by resorting to such methods, but sometimes kids need to at least be threatened.

If a (troublemaker) kid knows that a parent or teacher can't enforce discipline, then they'll run amok.

Of course allowing parents and teachers to use more drastic methods of discipline will mean that the system will be abused.  No system is perfect.  But having a system is better than no system.

IIRC, my parents have never hit me, but I was threatened with it enough times (IMO, justly so), and the threat (and the belief/surety that they would carry out the threat if provoked) was enough to stop me acting like a little ******* !

When I was in primary school I remember a kid getting his mouth washed out with soap :-)

There are problems with where to draw the line, but IMO it is absolutely necessary to give parents/teachers the authority/responsibility to threaten and carry out more drastic forms of punishment.  It is dangerous to say things like "as long as there are no lasting marks" as there are some horrendous forms of punishment/pain/torture that leave no marks, including mental abuse.

[mikeymike]

Excluding a kid from the group is punishment enough.
Putting a kid in a place wich is empty and without anything that attracts attention does miracles.

Something tells me you didn't go to a "trouble" school :-)  There were at least twenty kids in my year in secondary school who were regularly suspended.  Like they cared.  They continued being troublemakers all the time I knew them.  Last I heard, at least two of them are currently in prison.

[mikeymike]

Speelgoedmannetje wrote:
If a teacher is being attacked physically, she/he may defend her/himself physically, according to the law (at least, the Dutch law that is).

That's a lot of comfort for the teacher.  16 year old lad versus a young female teacher who is poorly paid for a job that demands the patience of a saint.

I'm not suggesting that teachers should be allowed to "slap their pupils around", but consider what you're saying from a practical, people living their life point of view.  I wouldn't expect anyone to work in a place that leaves them open to such abuse for such a pittance of a salary and very little real defence.

The media is almost always against the teacher in cases like this, as is the law.

fancy talk. ppl do not know how to use the law, because they do not know the law properly.

Should a country be fit for normal people to live in, or does everyone have to be a lawyer in order to exercise their rights?

If you're a good person, the law should be on your side, not an uphill struggle to get an injustice against you taken care of.

[mikeymike]

Should a country be fit for normal people to live, or does everyone have to be a lawyer in order to exercise their rights?

A citizen is obliged to know the law correctly.

Yes, but that should be taking into account that the law can be easily understood by the average citizen, and doesn't require that person to either be a lawyer or have one in order to make sure their rights aren't being stamped on.

mikeymike wrote:
If you're a good person, the law should be on your side,

Can't you understand your own subjectivness? What's exactly a 'good' person? A person who obeys the law or a person who thinks he can deny the law if it doesn't suit her/him well?

It's called idealism, Speel.

[mikeymike]

that_punk_guy wrote:
I was a "problem child." Two things to note:

1. They got me back on track without the need for anything like this. Hence, it's an unnecessary physical violation.

For you, it might well have been unnecessary.  But you aren't the "definitive" problem child.

2. If anyone had tried to put soap in my mouth, I'd have probably bitten their fingers off.

I certainly would not have returned to school with a renewed willingness to co-operate.

Horses for courses.  For example, some children can be clever enough to have the truth laid out to them of what their lives will become if they don't sort themselves out, to do the right thing.  Some aren't.  Some may need a more forceful approach, some don't.

It's not supposed to be a 'fix all' solution.  With people, I don't think there are any 'fix all' solutions.

[mikeymike]

cecilia wrote:
my mother was a teacher for a LOOOONG time.
Teachers do not want to be police. the good ones want to teach.

I agree, though I think teachers would be more comfortable with their role if they felt that their school/media/law was more on their side.

the problem is that some kids have problems that cannot be solved by school, teachers and sometimes even their parents (assuming they even care).

the right thing to do is take these kids and place them in therapy (or whatever we may create to cope with their issues).

Again, horses for courses.  This sort of thing will work with some kids.

alot of people shouldn't be parents because they simply have no interest (or skills) in raising children. children need security and direction.

Yep, totally agree.

[mikeymike]

Soap is quite slippery too.

[mikeymike]

Speelgoedmannetje wrote:

Everyone knows there's a line you can't cross

That's one of my points. People do not know that. That's why humanity invented law.

It's also a reason why there are multiple levels of punishment for crimes, because humanity has a sense of moderation.

[mikeymike]

T_Bone wrote:
I could never understand how some parents give their kids enema's as punishment. Is it just me, or is that a little wierd?  :inquisitive:

More than a little weird.

Though there have been quacks over the centuries who have said an enema a day has wonderful bodily benefits.