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Author Topic: 1.3Gig Dual PPC A1XE  (Read 7323 times)

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Offline mikeymike

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Re: 1.3Gig Dual PPC A1XE
« on: April 27, 2003, 08:49:24 AM »
It will be "on the expensive side" as well :-)
 

Offline mikeymike

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Re: 1.3Gig Dual PPC A1XE
« Reply #1 on: April 28, 2003, 12:50:47 AM »
@ Rob

In response to your first point:
If you have two processors, and the operating system has been designed to efficiently use multiple processors (I use the word 'efficiently' because if SMP is implemented badly you may as well throw the dual CPU module out the window!), then one CPU can be doing work while another application (which hasn't been designed to multi-thread) uses the other.  The application doesn't ask to use CPU0, it fires up a process, and the kernel decides what CPU is going to work on that process.  So while there isn't the advantage to be had of multi-threaded applications being able to use both CPUs at once, the application will still run faster on a dual CPU system.

In response to your second point:
Rubbish.  Where did you get that from?  I'm not even sure where to begin to correct you on this one, if you explain your logic behind this statement, I might be able to correct that :-)

If an operating system supports multiple processors, then there is an immediate benefit in running multiple processors.  The benefit is even greater still if programs running on the multiple CPU system are written to be multi-thread'able.  Threads, simply put, are like mini-processes running under the main process.  The kernel can, if it wants to, put 8 threads from a process onto 8 CPUs running in the system, and the work effectively gets done up to 8 times quicker than on an equivalent speed but single CPU system.

Another advantage of running a multiple processor system is that if an application decides to saturate one CPU for ages, you've got a spare :-)  Yes, a process can saturate both CPUs, but anyway :-)

As an on-the side note to multi-CPU newbies: If you have 2x 800MHz CPUs in a system, it doesn't make it a 1600MHz system!
 

Offline mikeymike

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Re: 1.3Gig Dual PPC A1XE
« Reply #2 on: April 28, 2003, 01:02:28 AM »
Having said all that, I think most 'average' computer users (not doing anything hugely taxing with their system, just average everyday apps) won't benefit a great deal through upgrading to a dual CPU setup.

The time when you do want to upgrade to a dual CPU setup is when you actually *know* the CPU is a major bottleneck in your trying to do something on the machine.  This isn't necessarily as simple as it sounds to work out, as CPU usage can go way up just because other hardware is bottlenecking a process.  Disk I/O is a favourite.  Given the choice between a dual CPU setup or a single CPU machine with 5 fast hard disks set up to do RAID striped, I'd take the disks :-)

If you think the CPU is the major bottleneck, then using a decent set of performance monitoring tools that can report disk I/O, processor queue length, page faults, etc. is what you need to be sure of your diagnosis of the situation.  You need to be able to trace the bottleneck from the beginning to the end of the task being processed.

Applications support is an important factor as well, though for Rob suggested to be a problem,  it would have to be the most screwed up application I've ever seen (and I can't think of one doing this) to run slower on a dual CPU system :-)

 

Offline mikeymike

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Re: 1.3Gig Dual PPC A1XE
« Reply #3 on: April 28, 2003, 12:18:35 PM »
@ jeffimix

Quote
I always thought that you could write the OS to take full advantage of the two processors, so that anything written nto hardware banging, but through the OS, would take advantage as transferred.


Basically yes (but also take into account what I said previously in this thread about applications support).  Programs hitting the hardware should be a thing of the past with a decent operating system behind the wheel anyway.  You can hardly have an SMP-capable operating system and still allow applications to hit the hardware directly.

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Second, I know that two 800Mhz processors Don't = a 1600Mhz processor, they have overhead, which is what stops them, correct?


Not sure what you mean by that.  I'll try to explain a little further.  Assuming that the 1600MHz processor and the 800MHz processor are made by the same people the same way, and one is simply clocked twice as fast as the other (very theoretical scenario), then you'll have the rough equivalent of the following comparison:

There's a piece of work to be done, and you have the following choices: You can give it to one person, who is especially experienced at doing that work quickly (the equivalent of the 1.6GHz processor), or you can give it to two people who aren't so used to doing it, so if only one of them were doing it, they'd do it at half the pace of the faster person.  Now, in the real-life situation, there are many factors involved in finding out which party would get the work done quicker.  When two people are working together on something, there can be many bottlenecks to getting the work done quicker.  There might only be one pen that they can use, so one would have to wait till the other is finished, as an example :-)

In computing terms, it would be like for example, you having a task, say for example, you have a UNIX-variant box, and you want to compile a hefty program from its source, say for example Mozilla.  Now obviously CPU is an important part of the equation to compiling the source quicker, but the process of compiling requires a lot of reading and writing to disk, lots of small files, which means that much of the time the CPU is going to be waiting for that to happen.  In which case, a dual CPU machine isn't going to be of much benefit.  It's better to improve the compiling process, so that you read a chunk of files from disk, write the compiled chunk to memory, and when you have a reasonable size chunk to write back to disk again, then write it.

Hard disks may be cheap nowadays, and they may claim to be able to do 50MB/sec, but comparing them to the capabilities of RAM throughput or CPU throughput, they're like a modem compared to broadband.  *Very* high latency on reading small files, that is why something like WIndows takes much the same time to boot even when you get a faster hard disk.  It's only when you do a very drastic comparison, say a pre-UDMA hard disk to post UDMA100, that you'd see the kind of drastic difference you'd prefer to see when reading and writing small files.  Look at 99% of the files used by the operating system, even with a bloater like Windows 2000, they're a few megs maximum size, quite frankly, who cares if you can read off a 50MB file in one second, when say ten 5MB files takes you much much longer.  Which is why RAID striping makes such a huge difference.
 

Offline mikeymike

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Re: 1.3Gig Dual PPC A1XE
« Reply #4 on: April 28, 2003, 12:24:04 PM »
I wonder whether it might be an idea if Eyetech were only to sell certain speeds of CPU in dual CPU module form, so something like:

modules for sale:

1x G4 800MHz
2x G4 800MHz
2x G4 1.3GHz
1x G4 1.8GHz
2x G4 2.2GHz
1x G4 2.6GHz

etc

Might work, but what would I know about chip sales :-)
 

Offline mikeymike

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Re: 1.3Gig Dual PPC A1XE
« Reply #5 on: April 28, 2003, 03:35:05 PM »
[Re: 133MHz FSB on the XE] Not a *major* bottleneck, but DDR would make the XE a significantly better performer.
 

Offline mikeymike

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Re: 1.3Gig Dual PPC A1XE
« Reply #6 on: April 28, 2003, 10:37:44 PM »
Ok, crap implementations of DDR aside, normally it would make a difference :-)

That's not an issue with the processor, but with the chipset or maybe even the RAM.
 

Offline mikeymike

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Re: 1.3Gig Dual PPC A1XE
« Reply #7 on: April 29, 2003, 08:35:44 AM »
yep, you're totally right.  I've been posting too late at night again :-)
 

Offline mikeymike

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Re: 1.3Gig Dual PPC A1XE
« Reply #8 on: April 29, 2003, 09:24:40 PM »
@ olegil

PCI-X - I was under the impression that was a potential replacement in the works for the PCI bus, not AGP... AGP has got a few more years in it *at least* if not a decade :-)  AGP-8x is more than most people are going to need for a while yet, and maybe there'll be a few more enhancements to that bus to go yet.

It could be with the IBM Blade servers that an AGP chipset is in use for graphics, in which case the chipset can talk to an AGP bus, in which case someone just needs to slap an AGP slot on the motherboard and play join the dots with some solder :-)

I could be talking out of my backside with that last paragraph, but it seems to me to be a good deal easier to adapt tried-and-tested technology than slap a custom new bus barely out of its nappies in something that's supposed to be 100% reliable, ie. a server.  Considering Intel can't even get the PCI/AGP bus implementations right on recent chipsets*, I don't think IBM would go jumping in that severely at the deep end.

* - an amusing situation recently with an 845xx chipset for the P4 from Intel, a limit of 90MB/sec bandwidth (confirmed by Intel bug in product) to AGP/PCI combined... guess how quickly the system dies if you try to run a reasonable graphics resolution and then do some network transfers? :-)  Answer: about five minutes.  Nice.