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Author Topic: Amiga 1200 versus Atari Falcon?  (Read 18298 times)

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Offline Digiman

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Re: Amiga 1200 versus Atari Falcon?
« on: December 27, 2010, 04:22:55 PM »
Quote from: nomore;602154
I remember back when they first were announced/released, there was a comparison on Games Master (I think) between the Amiga A1200, Atari Falcon and Acorn A3010.

From what I remember, they had a representative for each company answering the questions.

If you can find it on YouTube, it might be an interesting insight.


There are only two episodes of Games Master from all 7 series still missing and those are from Season 2 so I should have it somewhere. Who has the time to watch 140 episodes of Games Master though...most of it was console based games played by little kids or reviews of rubbish console games like Mario (*puke*). Got bored VERY quickly :)

Anyway...Falcon had a DSP and superior sound playback via 16bit DACs, that was about it really as far as what was better. The Falcon 16mhz 030 is barely faster than the 14mhz 020 in AGA (because 030 is only to be used if you need MMU or FPU) when you add fast ram and certainly slower than 16mhz 030 in Amiga 3000. Memory access on Falcon is identical speed to an ST on the Falcon for compatibility reasons and so it is crippled design overall. Look at most Falcon games and they look nowhere near as good as the whole DSP hype would have you believe. Also Silk Cut by The Black Lotus is on 060 AGA and 060 Falcon and looks and sounds very much the same, but better palette on AGA helps a bit.

Falcon was quite expensive compared to an A1200. I think base 1mb model was £600 on launch day and 4mb upgrade cost a lot as did their internal 2.5" hard drives too.

Now the Jaguar chipset inside a home computer....that would be something special. Just look at Doom on a Jaguar, using a 14mhz 68000 and custom chips, it runs as fast as a Pentium 66/75mhz PC in true colour.
 

Offline Digiman

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Re: Amiga 1200 versus Atari Falcon?
« Reply #1 on: December 27, 2010, 04:26:08 PM »
Quote from: qwerty40001;602161
Atari Falcon compared to Amiga 1200 has also:

- processor with MMU

- chunky 16bit truecolor mode,

- Multitos - Unix based operating system with memory protection.

The graphics capabilities of the Atari Falcon, classic Amiga reached only with an additional graphics card.

Atari Falcon was a much better computer than the Amiga 1200, but also was a much better computer than the Amiga 4000.

And yet the memory access to RAM was slower than the Amiga A1200 so the CPU was crippled even more because on the A1200 you can choose to buy Fast ram and get full speed 32bit performance....Falcon was stuck forever in 16bit unless you spent £800 on an 040 or 060 upgrade card.

Falcon games look worse than the best AGA had to offer (like Super Stardust) so technically means nothing, only musicians bought it for the 16bit direct to disk sampling and running Cubase in colour :)

I'm pretty sure max resolution was 800x600 certainly nowhere near super hi-res lace overscan of 1400x576 possible on a lowly 2mb A1200 either. And in this mode HAM8 was untouchable in 92, even on Mac and PCs costing £2000.
 

Offline Digiman

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Re: Amiga 1200 versus Atari Falcon?
« Reply #2 on: December 28, 2010, 01:22:15 AM »
Quote from: pyrre;602211
You must also specify the fact that the 68000 is only a system controller, and that the jaguar is a 64bit console.
Atari Jaguar wiki


Jaguar is really 32bit, the way they decided it was a 64bit machine was marketing foobar.

My point was that with Tom and Jerry custom chips + 13.??mhz 68k the Jaguar did a better rendition of Doom than a Pentium PC and cheap 32bit PCI graphics card costing about £1500. Just proves that well designed custom chips could have still achieved what Amiga 1000 did in 1985/86 :)

For those wondering, the Falcon had to have that crippled 16bit bus identical to an ST because that is how they kept ST comparability. AGA has more problems than lack of Fast RAM (big issue for CD32 though and totally stupid not to put a SIMM socket on CD32 to boost 3D games like Gaurdian). The biggest problem is throughput was not improved enough for 8 bit plane 256 colour graphics AND the blitter was still the same 16bit one from OCS/ECS just happened to work on a 14mhz bus not 7mhz.

Shouldn't over simplify things, both had problems but in true fashion both were quite acceptable for the price if you used them in their niche roles and quite easily superior to PC/Mac (music/video work respectively) :)
 

Offline Digiman

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Re: Amiga 1200 versus Atari Falcon?
« Reply #3 on: December 28, 2010, 03:02:32 PM »
Quote from: Iggy;602273
Yes, but both COULD have been better. I've heard that excuse about  the Falcon for years. ST compatibility creates a bit width limit? Care to explain that to me? Because I can't see why the system couldn't be 32 bit and if 16 bit WAS somehow required, a backward compatibility mode could have been added.

Your point about Jaguar is very valid. Custom chips could have still beat upgradable PCI cards, but they didn't because the designs just weren't good enough.
Jaguar, pretty impressive.
Falcon, 16 bit , also pretty impressive.
AGA - WTF?


Hmmm well Atari were losing interest after the battering the ST got from Amiga by 92/93 so the Falcon was assigned far less dev costs. There is nothing essential about making Falcon 16bit design at all except it was a quick and dirty hack for ST compatibility.

The issue with AGA is similar, in order to keep some reasonable compatibility for OCS games they were a bit limited because Amiga is a very complex chipset and any game worth a damn is hitting the hardware directly. The way Sony did it was to put PS2 custom chips on the PS3 motherboard. Commodore could have done that too, put two Paula chips onboard or integrate 2 into 1 package for sound compatibility AND improvement (like dual SID and Pokey boards for 8bit machines now) and keep cheapest Agnus and Denise in there. Then just create a super fast 32bit blitter and new screen mode chip for new modes. This would have cost more though and probably put the price of A1200 at £500.

It's a shame both Commodore and Atari got the 'console market' bug again, both flopped with C64GS and Atari 7800/Lynx so why try again? Commodore actually finished A1400 motherboard but wasted the last of their cash on pathetic CD32 which had no answer for SNES SuperFX equipped games thanks to a crippled chip ram only forever design on the 14mhz 020.

Had Atari stuck the Jaguar chipset into an ST styled casing it would have sold more than Falcon and could have sold about the same as Amiga 1200 if they wanted to hammer the market. No PC would have touched that for gaming and you can write letters on an Amstrad z80 based machine so business software users got plenty of power too.
 

Offline Digiman

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Re: Amiga 1200 versus Atari Falcon?
« Reply #4 on: December 28, 2010, 03:11:25 PM »
Quote from: Iggy;602412


Still you have to admit, current game consoles are very miggy.


That's because the whole ethos of Amiga 1000 (and to a less powerful degree A500) was to produce games far far superior to those that came before (PC EGA/ST/Mac/ALL 8bit consoles and computers) AND provide more powerful computing than the most expensive PC/MAC/ST at the time too. So priced somewhere between the two camps of last gen console and next gen PC/Mac.

By a general rule of thumb the Amiga 500 was double the cost of a comparable console like the Sega Genesis/Megadrive (games were half the price though!), and half the price or less than equivalent PC in 1990. PS3 is double the price of Wii but it is a full blown Linux box (original shiny PS3 will not remove BIOS option for Other OS, only plasticy PS3 Slim which has no such option is a problem...so 35 million machines are OK for Linux use still) but you would need to spend £1000 to get PS3 quality graphics via Win7/Vista box (XP is only DirectX 9.0c max).
 

Offline Digiman

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Re: Amiga 1200 versus Atari Falcon?
« Reply #5 on: December 28, 2010, 04:43:13 PM »
The STE was quite a serious improvement early on, but once A500 was down to £400 STE was doomed (around 1990). Also games programmers screwed over just as many STE owners as Amiga owner with games that rarely used the blitter on either.

Thing is, Commodore bought Amiga as is off the shelf (and sacked half the Hi-Toro engineers to cut costs) so improving it was no simple task and EVERY new iteration of a chipset enhancement would require herculean efforts to make new games look better instantly AND none of your old games improved.

On the other hand, playing original ST games on a 16mhz 68000 based machine is much more productive...Gauntlet 1 and Lotus II become more playable and run smoother and faster. And there is the key, the original ST and PC only needed faster CPUs to improve your entire games catalogue. So once PCs were getting their VGA graphics in arcade games as standard that was the point of critical mass (between 1990-1991). Poor old Amiga though, not only suffered at the hands of incompetent ST-ports (not even STE ports FFS) BUT even if you bought your A1200 none of the old non-polygon based games improved....Xenon II was still slow as hell like playing an arcade game sunken in treacle.

I feel sorry for Commodore because they had chosen the hardest route, all custom chip based performance = difficult to keep updating as games programmers don't write for unsold/tiny marketshare machines (ie the same problem STE owners had!). How pissed off would you be if every 2-3 years you got shafted the same way A600 buyers felt in early 1992 before A1200 was announced out of the blue that Autumn. Tricky business decisions there.

To be totally frank, the ST was a 16bit replacement for the Commodore PET, that's all it is. If it didn't have the name Atari stuck on it and came in a nice Amiga 1000/3000 style slimline case it would have wiped the floor with the original Macintosh at 1/3 the price for a superior machine. Anyone who bought a Mac or PC XT/AT in the 80s was an idiot :)

And it was Irving Gould who refused to upgrade the Amiga CPU, he is famously quoted as saying 7mhz 68000 is enough for Amiga users around 1990.

Of course if Commodore had sold the A1000 just 20% cheaper AND ACTUALLY MARKETED IT they would have had enough sales in the bag to make the A500 a 12mhz 68000 (fastest PC AT speed) and then A500+ could have been 16mhz plus what AGA was (2 extra bitplanes tacked onto OCS) to give reasonable 128/256 colour speed for 1990s when everyone in PC land had crappy ISA 286/16 machines anyway for home use.

And what numbnuts decided in all-in-one designs? They look like toys next to PCs and Macs sorry. How much extra does an A1000 keyboard cost than an A500 one inside the case? Bugger all that's what :)
 

Offline Digiman

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Re: Amiga 1200 versus Atari Falcon?
« Reply #6 on: December 28, 2010, 09:50:32 PM »
I have an interview with one of the chief Arm designers explaining Archimedes CPU really well, if I knew how to split the vid into 3x 10min chunks then I'd upload it to Youtube. Even he first chip finished in 1985 was 25mhz 030/020 performance!

With my 'new' X64 laptop I may even be able to record AVIs from WinUAE with sound too so expect more of my zany obscure games vids on Youtube too! haha

(not new new because new laptops are cock that can't run games newer than 1999 due to pathetic GPUs, mine is just a 2.2 T7400 Inspiron 9400 I got for a good price ex-corporate hooray and happy xmas to me lol)
 

Offline Digiman

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Re: Amiga 1200 versus Atari Falcon?
« Reply #7 on: December 29, 2010, 11:05:11 PM »
Don't think RJ Mical or Dave Needle was anything to do with Atari and Jay owned Amiga Computers (machine was called Lorraine back then) and was only 1/3 of the brains..

Also none of the C64 VIC-II/SID designers had anything to do with the ST. Shiraz Shivji had no major role in the important areas of the C64 design.

The two Atari 68000 based workstation prototypes had no Amiga custom chips, and were started when Warner still owned it.

:)
 

Offline Digiman

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Re: Amiga 1200 versus Atari Falcon?
« Reply #8 on: December 30, 2010, 12:17:24 AM »
Quote from: bloodline;602520
I would like to see it, zip it and pop it on a file share site like dropbox :) x


Virgin media need shooting, my upload speed is about 5-10kbs half the time even if I downloaded nothing all day, and internet is crawling at 512kb broadband speeds if I'm lucky.:roflmao: