WinUAE exposing how crappy Windows is

[AmigaHeretic]

I was using diskmaster with WinUAE last night on my Win7 Toshiba Satellite, and just for kicks, I started to poke around DH4: which is your windows "partition". Disturbingly, I started to run across programs and demos that I thought I had erased a while ago. 8( WTH! Are you telling me, that this "modern" operating system, and I use that term loosely, if you tell it to un-install a program, that it leaves all sorts of leftover crap?

I know that nothing ever gets really and truly "erased" from a harddrive without it physically being destroyed, but, this is rediculous! Geez. If I didn't need this digitizing program, I would have happily ditched Windows.

Yeah, a lot of stuff doesn't get uninstalled.  Usually you have files and folders left behind and settings still there.  Not to mention the registry which is a whole nother game.

If you go to C:\Program Files\  you will usually find left over folders of long gone programs.

The other one is C:\Program Files\Common Files folder.  Look in there and search around in the shared folders in there and you will find stuff probably from old programs (Norton will have like 5 even after it is uninstalled.)

C:\Documents and Settings\...  (C:\Users\.... in Win7)   and the tons of folders in there (it's just a damn maze) there will be tons of stuff in there.   Check adobe folders I have found a single 1GB left over file in the Adobe Reader folder in many systems.  If you check the folder sizes and work your way down you will find huge amounts of garbage.  


Then there are other places things are left behind like,
C:\Windows\
C:\Windows\System32\
C:\Windows\System32\drivers\

It hard to know what is left over and can be deleted in these folders though.  Norton programs for example leave tons of stuff in those folders as well.  Most of them start with Sym or you can right click on each file and it will tell you if it is a Symantec file.  You can delete these.  

It's pretty ridiculous that all that crap is left behind.  That's why these days I try to find "Portable Apps" of software I have purchased.  They work like Amiga programs.  Just run everything out of a single folder.

Then you can reformat and reinstall Windows when you need and you don't have to reinstall all your Apps.

[AmigaHeretic]

Windows isn't that hard to tidy up, it's just something new to learn.

If you know what you are removing.  With the registry it is really hard.

Taking Norton again, if you un-install and use their reg clean up tools, many search the registry for Symantec, Norton, etc there still keys that are left over.  There is hardly anyway to know what they go to and even Symantec probably doesn't know all the keys they leave behind.

{0A624A66-269C-11d3-80F4-00C04F68D969}
{11B529F0-7697-11d2-B34C-00104B22D5DF}
{4F9765D0-7907-11d2-B34C-00104B22D5DF}
{5DD3E8C0-7763-11d2-B34C-00104B22D5DF}
{5E07EBA4-B771-11d5-8152-00C04F68D969}
{7D604BFE-AC8F-11d1-9250-0060979C3468}
{CED9D6EE-B91A-11d5-8153-00C04F68D969}
{F01B4B50-775A-11d2-B34C-00104B22D5DF}
{0FD7D204-F362-11D2-80EB-00C04F68D969}
{103363F4-69F9-11D2-B34C-00104B22D5DF}
{7b77f3ef-b300-4413-8a80-6827fe37b694}
{F7B888EE-D30C-11D2-91BE-0020AF24FE3C}
{B2F04430-034A-11D3-9B19-00104B279EC4}

Are a few left over Norton keys and usually each is located in several places.  I use to use a program that watched how many keys were added when a program was installed.  Many programs add 3000+ reg keys.  

Files are easy enough to clean up(even if spread all over).  The windows registry on the other hand is just awful.  Wish they would spend their billions finding a better option after all these years.

[AmigaHeretic]

@AmigaHeretic

So other than the fact you are aware it is left there... does it really matter?

Speed is the first thing, but left over keys can cause problems.

Yeah, (I used to work for Symentec tech support) some left over keys can keep certain programs from installing correctly, some times when you install another program you loose internet access.  The left over sym* files in system32 are pretty notorious from still blocking internet access under certain circumstances, like you removed Norton and then installed Mcaffe and loose internet connection.  Then you immediately start troubleshooting Mcaffe when it is really left over Norton pieces.  

Those left over reg entries have been known to cause problems when installing a new NIC.  Usually a USB one.  



Again, though the biggest problem with ending up with 10,000s of keys left behind in the registry over time is speed.  

The actual physical reg files are stored in C:\windows\system32\config

they are usually the files "sam, security, system, software, default, sometimes userdiff"

The files are huge with clean install.  A single one of those might start out at 20MB by itself on a clean Windws install.  Not a reg expert, but I assume it loads these files and constantly searches them for settings when loading and using programs.

If you are a person that likes to install and test a lot programs then un-install them, then these files just keeps getting bigger and bigger and bigger.  Then it takes longer for the programs you actually have installed to use and to search the reg files.

One reg file can normally be over 100MB.  That's bigger than some OS installs.  Add the fact that there are several separate reg files and you can end up with hundreds of megabytes of crap reg info slowing the system.  Making your programs start up slower etc.

[AmigaHeretic]

The registry is just like a file system. Registry keys are no different to files.

I what way do you mean?   The reg files are just one big .txt file basically.  That is why it's slower for the OS to search through the bigger it gets.

Programs like "regedit" load the text file and arrange it so it looks like it's arranged more like your typical directory structure, but it's got no real directory structure of course.


The main problem really is that there is no way for a person to clean it.

If a program installs keys like {58512179-5E5E-4431-B982-621CD856B1F9} and all the key values don't indicate what program it's from, how do I know if it is left over or something important?  


You can export all the reg files combined into one big file.  Just open regedit minimize all the branches until just "Computer" is showing, highlight it and then choose export.  You have a huge text file of your entire registry.

If anyone ever has the chance, do a clean Windows install and export the registry to a single file.  Then install Adobe Reader and Quicktime.  Export the reg again to a 2nd file.  You can compare these in your favorite text edit programs(use something like ExamDiff to compare them at once and see what has been added).  Now uninstall Adobe Reader and Quicktime and then export a 3rd text file.  Compare the 1st and 3rd to see how much is left over.

Then figure out how you could possibly ever identify all the leftover stuff in the 3rd file, let alone clean it with out making Windows fail to ever boot again.

[AmigaHeretic]

No. The registry is stored as a hierarchical database. It's nothing at all like a big .txt file.
There's generally no reason for a person to clean it.

Which is basically one big text file.  I don't know what data structure the text is in nor the BigO() search times, but no matter what the more data you have the slower the search, regardless of the structure.  

If 2/3 of your registry is un-used information then you are just slowing things down.


Again, I mostly talking about people that install, uninstall lots of programs to test them, etc.  The older your Windows install gets the slower the reg will get.  On the Amiga this is non issue as there is no registry.  We can unLha stuff to ram.  If it's not what we want the delete it or reboot.  

If you have an office computer that has a pre-setup sytem and nothing ever really changes then the reg will stay the same size and this is a non-issue.  As far as the registry I'm saying I know a better way than the way MS does it.  Other than not having one at all.

As far as I know the only real way to clean the registry when it gets old, scary, and hairy is a reformat reinstall.


EDIT:
Obviously when I talk about searching the registry, pretty much every operation done to the registry requires a search right?  Find, Modify, Add, Delete.  If a program wants to find a setting it has to do a 'search', if it is changing a setting it has to do a 'search' to find it to change, if you are installing software or a program is adding things it has to 'search' to find where that information goes, if you are uninstalling or a program is deleting a setting from the reg it has to 'search' for what it needs to be delete.

[AmigaHeretic]

Actually, the Windows registry is a modified binary-tree database which uses the Jet database engine to operate, much like just about every other system database: Active Directory, DHCP server, DNS server, etc.  With the exception that at boot, ntldr determines the size of the SYSTEM hive and loads it in its entirety into paged pool memory.

So search times are Θ(log n) in the average case and Ω(n) in the worst case?

n is the number of registry entries.  So the more n the slower it is.

[AmigaHeretic]

Relevant to my point how?  Yes, I took those classes in CS as well (with flying colors,) and, really, search performance in a memory-based registry file is almost irrelevant in terms versus computing power available.  In any case, we can only theorize to the performance of the registry unless we run our own tests against it since Microsoft is well known for not publishing performance benchmarks.

But in any case, my point was not to argue semantics of search algorithms but rather to displace misinformation which seems to flow freely in bashing circles -- irrespective of what is being bashed.

Your point? Some was asked me why you would want a clean registry.  Among other things I suggest it will slow the system down. A 20MB reg file but it is filled with 80MB of garbage for a total of 100MB.

The only clrear fact is that the registry gets bloated with crap overtime.  If you think there is no speed penalty for loading in a 100MB file vs a 20MB files and dealing with that data, then I guess we are at a disagreement.

[AmigaHeretic]

All search algorithms get slower as the number of items to search increases. O(log n) is typical for tree search. A hundred fold increase in N does not equate to a hundred fold increase in time taken.

No, you're right, it would increase at 'log n'.  How many keys are in an actually registry?  I don't know that I've seen a way to count them.  You can figure out how many bytes all your hives are and usually that is in 10's or 100's or millions of bytes.

How often are the hives being searched? How often is actually modifying keys and sorting?

Searching through a flat file database almost certainly faster than trawling through a directory tree to find an environment variable...

If we are talking ENV: vs registry, there are maybe 50 files in my registry?  vs millions of entries in my reg?

[AmigaHeretic]

You've got completely the wrong idea about how it works. You need to go and read up more before you can make informed arguments.

I seems like you are telling me the more items you have to search the same speed it goes.

If you really have that solution please post it here.

[AmigaHeretic]

The time it takes will obviously increase as the database gets larger

That's was my only point.  

As I said I don't have a better solution than for Windows registry.


EDIT:
My original posts were also suggesting that it is hard for a human to run the registry.  The problem is the registry is powerful. One issue I see is clutter/speed.  There are many other issues with the registry, like a program(virus) can change single entry in a key and you can no longer run any exe's, can't run your AntiVirus, etc...

HKEY_CLASSES_ROOT\exefile\shell\open\command

Changing this value: "%1" %*

How many people have formated there systems becaue a virus changes that single key?  Easily a decade later there that key sits in Win7 still.  

http://www.computerhope.com/forum/index.php?topic=107089.0

[AmigaHeretic]

Windows is more complex than AmigaOS because it allows you to do more. If you're happy with AmigaOS for everything then use that.

You are responding to me, but it feels like you are talking to yourself.  

I never said that I don't like Windows.  I never said I even use Amiga OS anymore.

I probably use Windows 98% of the time.  The other 2% is AROS.

I clearly stated twice that I don't have a better solution to the registry than MS does.


Failing that the registry does suck.  You want to argue about ENV: well that was the whole point of the original poster.  If I have program I just delete the folder.  Everything is gone.  It's not that easy on Windows.  If I want to delete all the "settings" I go into ENV: and delete a "single" file named "ThisProgsSettings".  On Windows this isn't even possible for most programs.  

Amiga less clutter, Windows more clutter.  There is little doubt about that.  


As far a real life performance with a crap filled registry?  It is slower.  Do a Google search.  There is an entire industry around speeding up, cleaning up, repairing the registry.   If it so fast to search no matter the clutter and conditions than why in the real world does it slow down your machine so much?

[AmigaHeretic]

That is not the fault of the registry.

No it's the fault of Microsoft.  Glad they didn't skip using folders on the HD.  Just throw all the files in the root of C:  users shouldn't be sorting stuff out anyway.

I think you've misunderstood the market. It's not fixing a problem, it's selling an unnecessary product to unsuspecting, uneducated, and paranoid users. Belief in a thing by a majority of people does not necessarily make a thing true.

:laughing:  Yeah, none of them do anything.  That's why Microsoft themselves even made "Microsoft RegClean".

http://support.microsoft.com/kb/145758
http://support.microsoft.com/kb/299958



There are lots of legitimate programs that do increase speed, fix issues, and remove random crap that causes errors and problems.

Most of those require more knowledge than the average user has and you need to know what you are doing and looking for.

I agree there are many "Click Fix" types don't do anything.
Still if the problem didn't exist people wouldn't be looking for solutions in the first place.

[AmigaHeretic]

You missed a key quote from Microsoft: "The RegClean utility is no longer supported and has been removed from all Microsoft download sites." RegClean was designed to detect and remove references to COM components that were no longer installed on the local system. It had the nasty side effect of removing references used by DCOM, which supports components installed on remote systems. This and other weirdness led to its removal.

Microsoft isn't a single cohesive entity, and the various units within Microsoft are often out of sync. They're no different than any other large organization in that respect. When they make mistakes, they deserve just as much ridicule as everyone else; however, you can't blame the system team for problems caused by the application teams.

That really sums up my thoughts nicely.  Microsoft themselves can't even make a regtool that doesn't break something because the registry is such a huge mess.

[AmigaHeretic]

This thread delivers!

Just as a reference, I scanned my registry for orphans, to see how many I had.

My computer is being used daily, both for work, and for gaming and surfing. I have installed and uninstalled at least a dozen games since I reinstalled the last time, not to mention the myriad of game demos, and a few productivity apps that have been going in and out like male reproduction organs in the feeding apparatus of a very busy woman of eastern European origin.

There was 436 orphaned registry keys.
436 keys in the 8½ months that have passed since I last reinstalled.

This will undoubtly slow my system down to a crawl.

Oh, by the way, the reason some distributions of Ubuntu don't play DVD's, and some other media, out of the box is because the open source players violate patent/copyright laws in some countries. Thus, this funtionality is provided as add-ons, to make sure that the distribution is legal regardless of where it is being installed.

There is no way to know how many unused keys you have in your registry.


EDIT:

Ok. I took about a month old machine with Win7.  It has Office 2010 and a few other office programs.  

Backup the reg and it is 119MB

I installed Quicktime and then backup the reg again.
Then I uninstalled Quicktime and backed up the reg a third time.

After install 8835 lines were added to the registry.  There were more changed than that, but that is actual lines added.

After uninstalling, comparing to the original reg 3 minutes prior, there are 1956 lines of code left over.  



It added 1.03 Megabytes when installed.

After removing my REG now has 251KB of crap data.


No running CCleaner won't help. :-)

[AmigaHeretic]

251k? seriously. You think that will slow down your PC?

No I think it will speed it up.

That was a single program.  Like I said a dozen times already if you are the kind of person that installs and uninstalls program to test them out all the time your will slowly fill you system with crap and you have no way to clean it other than a reformat/reinstall.

That crap that is left behind on that test system is their forever now.   It's seems like there would be a better way.