Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Author Topic: AmigaONE X2000  (Read 14821 times)

Description:

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline takemehomegrandma

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Join Date: Oct 2002
  • Posts: 2990
    • Show all replies
Re: AmigaONE X2000
« on: July 08, 2013, 11:03:12 AM »
Quote from: kickstart;740140
Another underpowered machine overpriced?


Most certainly so, yes. It's yet another extremely low volume motherboard based on a weak and expensive PPC CPU, so I think this is a safe bet! ;)


Quote from: Seiya;740143
i don't understand why they want to insist on new hardware if X1000 don't have yet full support audio, video, pci-xpress 3D accelation, Xena and Xorro.


Trevor said in that video that a commercial release of the "X2000" wouldn't happen until at least 12-18 months because of the time needed of porting OS4/writing drivers. Well, the "X1000" was at the current "X2000" development stage (prototype had been built, OS4 porting was initiated) in the year 2009. And guess what? Four years later we are still waiting...


Quote from: NovaCoder;740153
So is this new machine less powerful than the X1000 then?


A step backwards in some areas, a step forward in others. The lack of Altivec is a real downer IMHO.

Overall I'd say the "X2000" is more like a step *sideways* than it is a leap forward compared to the "X1000". And it's probably two years away.


Quote from: billt;740161
Quote
I'm still not getting why they bother with dual-core when OS4 doesn't support SMP?
It makes more sense to provide the hardware first, and then work on the software to use it. It's somewhat harder to do the other way around. I myself would rather see a T4240 kit with lots of cores, but some call me crazy. :)

If I were the designer, I'd want to add in as many advanced features as possible, so the board supports them when the software catches up, and the user can benefit from such OS upgrades. Or, like my XE-G4, it won't do anything better when OS4 does get SMP support. I'd prefer untapped potential to a blockade.


True SMP simply can't be incorporated into Amiga without breaking the Amiga environment/backwards compatibility in such fundamental ways that you could as well introduce 64-bit, true memory protection and do a proper ISA switch to x86 while you are at it. There is no point in hanging on to the PPC after restarting with a clean slate. So if this has really been the plan, then the "X2000" (and the "X1000" as well for that matter) is redundant and an even worse idea.  

(And I'm very puzzled why the "Xorro/Xena" is still there? It only increases the complexity of the design, thus making it unnecessary expensive at several levels. And it's utterly useless, not even A-eon has a good answer why it's there or what it can/will be used for!)
MorphOS is Amiga done right! :)
 

Offline takemehomegrandma

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Join Date: Oct 2002
  • Posts: 2990
    • Show all replies
Re: AmigaONE X2000
« Reply #1 on: July 08, 2013, 07:15:02 PM »
Quote from: billt;740204
Uh, what?! How does that relate to my post?

That kind of logic should lead to questioning your advice, why port to x86 as there is not already a pile of x86 softwares to run on the OS when it gets there... And his question then continues, as why bother with Core i7 or Haswell that have lots of cores that are still not yet supported? I don't get it...

Remember that we are talking about a clean slate restart in the OS development since SMP simply can't exist inside a traditional Amiga legacy environment without breaking it. You would have to cut the cord to the past, once and for all. To have things like SMP, 64-bit, etc, then old legacy Amiga applications will have to run in some kind of a boxed environment, separate from everything "NG", not mixed in the same environment as it is today (on MorphOS/OS4). UAE probably makes most sense then, like AROS (for 68k apps, most PPC ones worth mentioning can probably be updated as needed and then recompiled (and for whatever ISA)).

All you need to develop things like SMP, 64-bit, etc for your OS is a virtual machine. AROS runs this way, and AFAIK also the MorphOS developers uses this approach for "NG development/ISA migration" (only for development purposes). There is no point in building über-expensive PPC hardware with multiple cores just to develop things like SMP, especially not when PPC will probably be the least preferred architecture to run your "new", SMP enabled OS on. That is simply, well... backwards.

Quote from: klx300r;740213
all this OS4 bashing here

Where?
MorphOS is Amiga done right! :)
 

Offline takemehomegrandma

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Join Date: Oct 2002
  • Posts: 2990
    • Show all replies
Re: AmigaONE X2000
« Reply #2 on: July 09, 2013, 11:32:16 AM »
Quote from: jorkany;740283
Actually there are no plans to include any sort of multi-core support in 4.2, simply because nobody has any idea as to what will be in 4.2:

http://www.intuitionbase.com/solie_irclog.txt

I recommend you take a long hard look at the answer to the question on [18:09:16] in that interview.


Funny to see how the bold and brave "4.2 features" is spontaneously devalued this way. "When Hyperion say 'ship something', we ship whatever we have". Yeah... :rolleyes:

I think it's obvious that there is no centralized plan, no centralized management anymore. Sounds more like they have adapted the AROS approach now, everyone works on whatever he wants, when he wants (on his spare time). And looking at what is actually being released it becomes obvious that hardly anything is happening anymore. The key feature of the last update (OS4.1.6) was a bump in the version number (a new version, yay!) and the bundling of AmiUpdate. There has been some work done on drivers, but that's coming from Acube/Aeon. Why? Well, Christopher Gutjhar (who I trust, and it seems he has some inside knowledge from friends of his in the community) has on a few occasions on various sites been mentioning that the OS4 developers are left unpaid (like: here (my reply)) much like the MorphOS Team was when Thendic France crashed and burned, resulting in the infamous "morphos.net" site hijacking and some developers leaving, and in a post he has even played with the idea of using "amigaos.net" in a similar way in order to get rid of "our version of 'the BBRV folks'". Not a bad idea, IMHO!

Once upon a time, the Friedens were the leaders of OS4 development. They were supposed to be employed and paid, and they were the ones managing all the OS4 development. After a lawsuit against Hyperion regarding missing payments, they suddenly kind of disappeared. I don't mean they stopped reading/posting in forums, but they are not the head of OS4 development anymore. Something changed. Instead "ssolie" (of all people) was brought in. He is not employed. And one of the first  actions he took was to try to bring new developers on board ("AmigaOS wants you") by appealing to anyone in the community to come and help out. Around this time they also started to talk about how AmigaOS was more of a hobby project, so I guess the newbies weren't exactly put on a pay-roll either.

I think this is a credible explanation to both the uncertainties regarding "OS4.2.0", as well to the dramatically halted OS4 development in general. Something is obviously not right in OS4 land, or to put it in a different way - the reality probably doesn't match very well the appearance (the public facade) some people try so hard to put up.

And in the meantime people like Trevor continues marching in their own direction. At his own will, his own initiative. This is what happens when there is no centralized management, no grand masterplan for platform evolution. Anarchy. Hyperion promised things like SMP, memory protection, resource tracking and automatic stack enlargement a decade ago. Today also 64-bit would make sense. But to incorporate these things into Amiga OS, such drastic changes would be required that you could as well migrate to a proper desktop ISA (like x86) while you are at it. *Not* doing this would be close to madness. And then you will have a bunch of people who paid a truckload of money for underperforming PPC hardware that simply doesn't make sense anymore, and will also probably be close to worthless on the second hand market.

All IMHO of course!

:)
MorphOS is Amiga done right! :)
 

Offline takemehomegrandma

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Join Date: Oct 2002
  • Posts: 2990
    • Show all replies
Re: AmigaONE X2000
« Reply #3 on: July 09, 2013, 08:27:22 PM »
Quote from: OlafS3;740333
And seriously MorphOS-Team has a masterplan?


Well, I don't know if it's a masterplan (only time will tell, however their idea with building a wide support for mainstream PPC Mac HW was indeed genious), but at least they communicated a plan with a short-term, mid-term and long-term perspective two years ago (link 1), including a roadmap (link 2) describing specific features planned for "next release" and for the following releases. This was in 2011, by now you can tick many things off from that check list. :)

There once was some specific features outlined for OS4.2 as well, given OS4's somewhat odd version system ("OS4.1 update 6"/OS4.1.6) bumping that "1" digit to a "2" will be a major version upgrade which is supposed to be reflected by the features, and true SMP is one of the features that has actually been communicated as being part of OS4.2 on numerous occasions.

And now we hear from the 'development lead': "I have no idea what OS4.2 will contain, when Hyperion say 'it's time for a release' we will release what we think is ready then".

Things changed...


Quote
Seriously all OS development right now is "hobby" noone can live of it.


You don't have to tell me that, I'm not the one putting up a false facade of a full working company steaming ahead, building an industry, a commercial future for the platform. I know none of that is true. OS4 had their own situation with unpaid developers (who claim ownership of their code), and some of the people who back in 2004 was sitting on the fence pointing fingers at the "morphos.net" incident, are now active in maintaining the OS4 charade. The little work done is of course purely at a hobby basis (just like AROS and MorphOS), besides Aeon/Acube sponsored driver development.


Quote from: OlafS3;740334
AMorphOS [...] stucks in PPC the same way as AmigaOS and there is no chance (if you believe the Devs) that this will change in the next years.


Well, the above mentioned plan had a long term perspective that included an ISA change and the development of "NG" features like 64-bit, etc. If you believe the Dev making that presentation, the situation was actually: "yes indeed, within a few years, we will change the architecture".

Back then when this was discussed, I read somewhere that initial steps had been taken already. That was in 2011, so two of those "a few years" has already passed!

I think it's a fair "guesstimate" that a "X2000" machine won't be here until 2 years from now (Trevor said himself 12-18 months, and he has been shown to be a bit over-optimistic when he made release predictions of his "X1000"). So when (if) the "X2000" is released, 4 years will have passed since that MorphOS plan was presented. Who knows, maybe 4 years is the "few years" needed?

It depends on their ambitions I'd say, a pure ISA migration of what we have today (nothing of the fancy NG stuff) in a clean slate cut from the legacy could probably be done in a few weeks. But implementing SMP, 64-bit, etc would take some development.

(But now we are drifting off topic, let's get back to "OS4" and the "X2000" )

:)
MorphOS is Amiga done right! :)
 

Offline takemehomegrandma

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Join Date: Oct 2002
  • Posts: 2990
    • Show all replies
Re: AmigaONE X2000
« Reply #4 on: July 11, 2013, 03:54:57 PM »
Quote from: ElPolloDiabl;740446
P.S.
Try and buy the name: Amiga 5020
That would be a lot cooler than Amiga One x


They can't, Hyperion is only allow to use the name "AmigaOne" or "Amiga One". Not "Amiga".


Quote from: KimmoK;740463
and make it more pricey...


:eek:

Yeah, uhm, that seems very smart, definitely something to strive for!

:laugh1:
MorphOS is Amiga done right! :)